doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Double Rifles, Paradox Guns & Gauge Rifles @ doublegunshop.com Alex Henry Double Rifles problem

I recently came into possession of two rifles the first I am sure is an Alex Henry .360 Express, the second I am pretty sure is an Alex Henry .360 but it only has what appear to be Birmingham proofs. The problem I have with both of them is that they appear to have been someone's projects and they are both missing the locks, hammers and firing pins. I have searched the internet in vain for any locks to replace them. I am looking for any ideas as to what to do with these rifles to restore them. They are the best handling rifles I have ever held and fit me perfectly, this is all very frustrating. They both have beautiful bright bores.










#2



[img]http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b316/larry21556/Alex%20Henry%20Rifles/IMG_0653.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b316/larry21556/Alex%20Henry%20Rifles/IMG_0654.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b316/larry21556/Alex%20Henry%20Rifles/IMG_0656.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b316/larry21556/Alex%20Henry%20Rifles/IMG_0657.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b316/larry21556/Alex%20Henry%20Rifles/IMG_0659.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b316/larry21556/Alex%20Henry%20Rifles/IMG_0661.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b316/larry21556/Alex%20Henry%20Rifles/IMG_0662.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b316/larry21556/Alex%20Henry%20Rifles/IMG_0663.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b316/larry21556/Alex%20Henry%20Rifles/IMG_0664.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b316/larry21556/Alex%20Henry%20Rifles/IMG_0665.jpg[/img][img]http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b316/larry21556/Alex%20Henry%20Rifles/IMG_0666.jpg[/img]

What a shame!I think having new locks made would be your only option,not cheep!

Talk to Steve Nelson ....he is working on a very similar project.

In 2001 I got two Alex Henry rifles from the 1890's that had never been finished though I was lucky they both retained their major components. Replacing locks is a real headache though I'm sure it's feasible. I wrote about finishing my rifles in the spring issue, 2003, issue of DGJ. A year or so ago I heard of another unfinished rifle surfacing in Oregon. Perhaps that's what Steve Nelson is involved with now. Maybe some currently available back-action locks could be made to work, perhaps with lockplates made to fit the existing inletting. Over the years I've heard stories of unfinished British guns of many types but never read an explanation of how they came about. As expensive as good, original rifles are today, it makes sense to finish ones like this if at all possible. Good Luck.

Is there no way to back track the ownership and find the missing locks?

There is a slim slight outside chance that these folks are worth a call to see if they can help.

http://www.blackleyandson.com/index.html

No question locks (bar and backaction) can be made.
The guns are not engraved so plain plates would acceptable.
Parts from spare locks can be adapted, and the rest made.
I have made both types of lock, and no, this not an offer, only advice.
Please do not let these go to waste.
Where are you located?

I owned the little .360 that Steve Nelson now owns at one point in the past. Parts can not be adapted to these guns as they are a true mini frame. Standard size parts are way too big to fit. Give Steve a call, he needs some motivation to get his done, and he is very capable.

Do a search for Jim Westburg. I have seen links of some of his work, one of which included an AH falling block from scratch- incredible including the lock which was cranked.

Let me try to respond to all of your comments. The guns recently came out of the attic of a friend of mine who died a few years ago. He kept no records so they can't be tracked. A lot of his stuff seems to have "disappeared". I went to Bertram & co web site, nice work there, I will get with them later. Blackley & Son seems to have locks for muzzle loaders, I will have to ask about back and forward action breech loaders. Gun #2 is very nicely, probably second tier, engraved with about 85% case color remaining. Keep the thoughts coming as I am at a loss.
I am located in Spanish Springs Nevada, north of Reno.
Thanks, Larry

Small world, I owned the .360 Alex Henry that went to SKB that was sold to Steve Nelson. Fully engraved double rifle made for the Maharaj Rana of Dholpur. I bought it from Tom Ondros who told me his x-wife threw the locks away when he was hunting out of the country. I own an Alex Henry .360 double rifle bar lock action in beautiful condition. I tried to make copies of those locks and finally gave up. I am no machinist and the task was too hard. I talked to an English gunsmith that would do the work, but at that time it was quoted as over $12,000.00 and up to 2 years wait. Those locks would have to be fully engraved to match the action. SKB is right, the locks were hand fitted to the actions and my good .360 locks would not fit in the one missing the locks. I might be able to find the molds my brother made for casting the internal lock parts and individual pictures of each piece. Unless the work can be done by yourself, its a loosing proposition. Good luck!

I didn't see any Henry marks on the second rifle. It's a guild gun made for the trades. No names is common, the retailers had their name put on and many believe that the name is the maker. Not always so.

What about Colin Stolzer of Stolzer and Sons?
http://www.stolzergunsmithing.com/

Could he possibly do this sort of work? Very talented gunsmith. Wonderful rifles by the way and good luck.

Charlie

IMO there's quite a few that are capable of doing it. But the cost/benifit ratio would be out of sight! The Royal might be worth 6-7K and the guild gun 4-5K. The 360 isn't a in demand caliber IMO.
IF others wanted a second barrel set and these could be adapted, would be the best use of these. Others might want the wood. But I might be wrong..

AkMike,

Couldn't agree more about them not being worth the effort of having locks made, but it sounds like the OP wants to restore them. Then again he might not want to after he thinks long and hard about the prices involved.

On the top one I see the firing pins are missing also but I would think that a much easier fix.

Man....doesn't that make you want to just sit down and bawl like a little girl?

Larry, I have a Northcoat bar action hammer gun receiver with hammers and firing pins. The lock layout looks similar to the inletting you have. If you think this might be of help as a donor gun you can contact me via email. My email address is in my profile. Daryl

Thanks to all who took the time to comment. There is a lot to think about here. I agree that the cost is a factor. I would like to avoid the situation where you put 100 thousand into restoring a car that would sell for 35 thousand. The AH I would consider doing but the guild gun I think is a better candidate for finding a donor gun.

What name is engraved on the rib of the barrels? To confirm they are Alex Henry make a call to Dickson & Sons to get a description to confirm with the serial numbers. The back action doesn't appear to be an AH. Although AH rifling was common for many makers.
Neither of these 'crank' locks, which is good for restoration cost.
The bar lock AH has a rather late serial number, I have a .360 falling block close to this number and it was made in 1901!
My uncle Bill Roberts (deceased 2004) build a few AH bar locks and they were in line with Brazier quality for no less than $1000 each in the white 10+ years ago. My guess to get one top lock today will run a little more. PLUS you need hammers!!!
Interesting that the AH bar lock rifle have no engraving, even seem to have border line engraving.
Jim (long time friend of mine) and Steve can certainly do the work, reach out to them. Another avenue may be Bob Roller in W.Va. He builds locks and I know he has a small pattern bar lock off a baby Whitworth. Then again, the internals of his lock may not fit the inletting of your rifle? I don't know if he'll be interested in fitting the lock to the gun. If so, he could make the lockplate oversize.

Left out.. AH 2nd quality seem to have border line engraving.

Sorry, I missed the second page of this topic. Being new doesn't help. Others have posted info that I seem to repeat -sorry.

Again, I want to thank all who have responded. It appears that the only solution is to have new locks made for the AH, which appears to have never been finished. I pulled the forearm furniture off and there is no evidence of bluing or case colors. The rib is unmarked. I will post any results when they occur. Thanks again.

Larry

Larry,
I suggest you look to builders of muzzle loaders for help.Parts for ML pistol,may be adaptable to lockplate made to fit(for small 360).I can't answer as to cost of the work,but including these builders increases the chances of finding a reasonable price.Putting these rifles back together would be a worthy exercise.
Mike

FWIW have a look on the < Track of the Wolf > site for parts and pieces. I would think you should be able to find something adaptable. The biggest challenge to me would be getting the "correct" hammers - so that everything lines up properly.

Nice guns and should / could be brought back to working order, if not by you by a "hobbyist" that can do most of the work for himself. JMHO --- John

I have looked at Track of the Wolf and their locks are more suited to muzzleloaders. I have also communicated with several members here who have offered a lot of help by email. I will post any results. Larry

Hopefully they can be resurrected! Old good rifles aren't being made any more!

In gunmaking ceters like Gardone and Eibar there are outlets that sell semifinished locks, both hammer and hammerless.

Try OMPS in Gardone, the address is www.omps.it.

Making a lock from scratch is not easy, but it in this day of 3D copiers and CNC machines it should not be too hard to accomplish at a reasonable cost.

Larry,
6830 is an "in the white" Alex Henry. It did have sidelocks at some time. Otherwise, the stock could not have been inlet and the gun could not have been proved. Somebody removed them and lost them. That's an expensive problem. Maybe your friend removed them for safety???
I do own AH #7064 which is a .450 express double rifle and is in the white. It's not engraved nor case colored, and the rib is not matted. It's proved however and it is complete.
Dickson's records shows it "in stock" in 1900 ( and never sold). It seems like a few of those are around.
Kirby Hoyt at Vintage Doubles also has (had?) a .360 double in the white. He might help you with pictures of the locks he has. And there are the guns shown in the double gun journal as described in the thread.
The other one does not look to me to be an Henry. The only Henry feature is the lightening machining in the action bar.
But that was not an exclusive Henry feature.
It would be great to rehabilitate both of them though.
Best regards,
WC

Thanks again for all of the good thoughts. I think all have agreed that the second rifle is a Birmingham guild gun and definitely not a Henry. I have found a few photos of apparently identical side lock guns similarly engraved with a couple of different names (retailers?) on the side locks. Larry

Obviously I do not follow this forum often enough. I am the Steve Nelson who is currently rebuilding the Alex Henry .360 DAMASCUS double in question. No one seemed to mention the one factor that made this project worth pursuing, that being the Damascus barrels. Thanks to a very generous client (Mr. Buffum) I have a head start on the locks. No promises, since I have a couple (!) projects for my clients but I plan to have the rifle available for viewing at the Beinfield (Firearms Engravers Guild of America) Exhibition in Las Vegas, Nevada, in January, 2014.

Folks,
My intention now is to make new locks, from scratch, for my .360 Alex Henry double. Mine is a bar action (as opposed to the more common back action) lock gun. My plan is to produce a 3D model of the parts when I am finished. In collaboration with Reto Buehler I would hope to make these lks available to the trade. However, be patient. Reto and I still have to make a living completing our commission work.

Dirk Schimmel of Wy. has a place in England that will make complete locks for 2500 or so for the pair IF I understood him. I sent a PM to Larry some time ago about this but no response yet.

There were many Henry rifle with Damascus tubes. I have 2 here.

Sorry for the delay. I have now responded to AkMike1's PM. Larry

Finding the exact locks or a perfect fit of a lock would be a stroke of luck for sure. However, you might want to contact Track-of-the-Wolf and see if there is any assistance there. At least you can look at just about every lock, new made, currently available.

Nick Makinson in Omoka ONtario Canada is a cerified english gunmaker and could make locks. So could a fellow named Les Paul also in Ontario.

I can feel your frustration!

As i see it you are left with two options.

Restore them to functionality.

Professionally Restored.

If you take your time it would be fairly straight forward to restore them to functionality.

The back action gun will be the easiest, take a couple of measurements of the inlet and look around for some lock plates that are as near as possible in size to the original inlet or bigger with similar engraving, have the makers name engraved on them and inlet them into the stock.

If you take your time and carefully select your locks its amazing how close you can get them to fit, i recently completed a similar job re locking a back action gun, one lockplate fitted with only minor fitting and alteration of the inlet and the other was slightly worse and has a 1mm gap along the top edge - which i can fix by dovetailing in a fillet.

Then simply measure the new locks for hammers and order some replacement castings.

You could achieve a functional gun for the cost of a few hours inletting and perhaps �60 in parts. The quality of how you match the engraving, quality of inletting you do, and weather or not you get the makers names engraved will determine how much of a good job you can make of it.

You could do the same with the sidelock gun but i think you will have to probably make up new lock plates which if you do your self will be a boring and tedious job, and if you pay someone else, it will likely be expensive.

To have it professionally done you could have lockplates made up to as near as possible fit the original inlet but its going to cost quite a bit.

Pictures or it didn't happen.. i know.


[img]http://s1289.photobucket.com/user/Demonw...?sort=3&o=1[/img]

Not finished with it yet obviously, the retaining screws of the old locks were fully rusted in and had to be dug out so i'll have to let two lumps in at the rear of the locks to inlet around them properly, then they will be hidden by the checker, the small gaps around the locks will be taken up with fillet's of wood dovetailed in when i get around to it. The have to fit pinfire hammers to it, as the locks are hammer gun locks.

But finding old locks to replace the missing locks on yours will be difficult but not impossible. You could soon have it functional again. If the gun really warrented the expense and time, i would have just milled out the original inlet and inlet an entire block of wood into the gap and fit locks from scratch.