doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Shooting nitro loads in BP proof Damascus?

Blue Grouse....for your reference:

Damascus circa 1890's......



There are lot's of smokeless loads out there if you do a little homework...all below 7,000 PSI....with readily available modern components......like the load Kensal mentioned above.....

Yes, you can load Black in modern hulls......several companies in the U.S. sell loaded BP shot shells.......

To load BP yourself, you need special powder handling equipment, as any friction created sparks will ignite BP....again, suggest a little homework before you attempt loading BP if you are not familiar with it.........

Doug,
Great diagram!
I have found many loads as you describe on the Hodgedon website, Even some below 5000PSI but they are all 2.75". Are you thinking that these longer shells are the way to go in the shorter chambers or am I missing something?

Blue Grouse,
First you can load black powder in modern plastic hulls. The heat of black powder will melt the inside of the hull a bit so only use them once. so use those cheapies from the trap or skeet range nobody wants. Second, do not use a plastic wad with black as it will melt the wad and make plastic deposits on the bore you will not like. Black powder is not hard to hand load. Here is how. Run your hull through the sizing die and primer seating die on your press. Then pull the hull aside and put in your volume measured black powder (you can make up a little plastic or brass scoop for this to throw the size charge you want) insert the over powder wads, press them into place with a piece of dowel and put the shell back in the press for the shot drop. Now comes a different crimp. Cut away most of the star crimp back to the rolled edge of the crimp almost. Actually this is the first operation before starting the loading. Place an over shot card on top of the shot. Adjust the crimp punch a little deeper than normal and crimp the shell so it looks like a roll crimped hull. While loading make sure to limit the amount of black powder in the container you are scooping from and take the same precautions necessary for smokeless powder safety. The finished hull will fit your 2 1/2" chamber and because you have removed the star crimp material it will be very close to a 2 1/2" hull after firing. The roll style crimp will also drop your pressure by a couple hundred more PSI.

The biggest safety issue is getting spilled black powder in the press mechanism where it can be crushed, igniting it and any other open powder in the vicinity. That is why I remove the hull to the side to load powder and get the overpowder wads seated before returning the hull to the press. Make sure there is no powder clinging to the exterior of the hulls.

There is something of a split on which granulation is correct. Most written material says FFg best, but most shooters I know use FFFg for performance. You can try both on your own. This isn't difficult reloading. The old time market hunters loaded hundreds of rounds by hand without mechanical presses using wooden hand tools and a roll crimper.

Blue Grouse:

http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/2486

Load up 2.5" new hulls using the loading data as a "guideline" for your "low pressure smokeless" damascus loads........

Work up your own loads....not rocket science...just keep pressures low and find what works best in the gun you have.....

I load 2.5" in 12,16 and 20....and shoot them in old and new guns.......once you get the proper pet load that you like, you're in business..........

Good Luck....

O.K. just so I get this straight - I should use the data for low pressure 2.75" loads and adapt them to 2.5" hulls? If so, I assume I will need to try a few to get the right fit.
I have one load that I currently use with Fed. Gold Medal hulls, cut down to 2.5" and star crimped in my sizemaster (with the short shell adapter) and the fit is O.K. but not perfect, they run at about 8200PSI.
Should I try some of the low pressure loads for 2.75" in the cut down 2.5" hulls and see what fits? Of course, all data for the Gold Medal hulls.
Thanks for the time and wisdom!

Blue,

I posted the black powder info to show pressures, not suggesting you need to shoot only black powder. I shoot my damascus guns all the time with modern loads at low pressure.

To answer your question, I would look for tool marks at the thin point. Greener most likely did not make it that thin. I would try to understand.

Pete

i would not worry about the BP Proofs, just use low pressure loads such as Justin mentions with Pb and 7625. The BP proofs means they were PROOFED and the proofs I believe were about 12-13000 psi

I once bought a couple of flats of Italian 2 1/2 12 ga No 71/2 shot for grouse, to be used in a modern Wm Evans (1927) BLE
Paper case, marked RC, Professional Game, 65mm. The boxes were marked "CIP", so I assume the pressure was in conformance with the rules of the CIP.
Anyway, these cartridges produced so much recoil I could not shoot them in the Evans and used them up in a Remington 1100 for sporting clays, and in that gun the empties were thrown a long way.
So just because a factory cartridge is marked 65mm, or 2 1/2" it does not mean it is low pressure as some people think.
I have an Alex Thomson 12 ga bar action Jones underlever from around 1870, with apparently sound Damascus barrels and I shoot 3/4 oz loads of No 8 shot with a light load of Green Dot and a WAA 12 wad in a paper Federal Gold Medal case cut down, roll crimped, for a loaded length of 2 1/4". Cute.
Gold 40 has recipes for 7625 (?) he uses in his older guns. I do not subscribe to using 2 3/4" hulls in 2 1/2" chambers whatever Sherman Bell said.
I use Green Dot because that is what I have on hand.

I confess to a preference for black powder but I shoot mostly older, original firearms, such as yours, that were originally used with BP, such as yours. You can clean the BP "gunk" from your smoothbore with 3-5 patches. That's just the way it is.

If you want the ultimate in simplicity just purchase a box of 2 1/2 brass hulls from one of several sources, Buffalo Arms is one, and you have a lifetime supply. You will need 11 ga. wads most likely and the only special tools you will need are a decapping punch, easily made from one of those little screwdrivers often given away as advertisement, and a dowel of large enough size to fit loosely in the hull. For seating the large pistol primers those hulls require the same dowel, something hard to place the primer on, (I use a scrap of our granite counter top), and a small hammer are all that's needed.

To load, the charge in drams is easily found out and a dram is 27.5 grains. Figure out your powder charge, dump it, (I do use Ffg, it patterns better in my guns), insert the hard over powder card, the felt cushion wad and I use another hard overpowder card on top of that. Dump your shot charge and insert over shot card. In the old days they used watergalss to hold the overshot card in place and it is still available. I have learned that Duco cement works just as good and is easier to come by and work with. Glue the overshot card in and you're done. If the load doesn't come up to the top of the hull, so what. Doesn't hurt a thing. For clean up I drop my hulls in a container of hot water, slosh them around a bit, repeat, let dry and throw in the tumbler just as you would your rifle or handgun cases.

A little experimenting may need to be done to find the load your double likes but that's part of the fun. It took me 3 loads for my German combination gun. If you have a sense of history I believe you will enjoy it. If not, find the nitro load, they are out there as others have shown.

Doug;

Interesting two photos of what appears to be the classic barrel obstruction by a shell of a lower gauge, especially since there does not appear to be any old stress crack corrosion illustrated in the clean breaks of the chamber walls of the barrel. I have seen identical type of eruption on fluid steel barrels when there has be say a 20 gauge shell in front of a 12 gauge shell in the chamber when the gun was fired.

Was the firearm illustrated in the photo yours and what was the cause of the eruption? Were you hurt?

Regards;
Bv