doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com 10ga vs 12

I've never owned a 10ga, but I'm intrigued by them, and there is one I kind of have my eye on. I like the idea [in the abstract] of owning one as a heavy field and waterfowl gun, considering they were commonly in use at the turn of the century, but the cost of no tox ammo is prohibitive. Do most 10ga owners reload? Are the performance advantages of a 10 vs a 12 significant?

Mark,
I had a 10 gauge 1878 Colt a few years back. For hunting I�d reload 10 gauge shells with black powder. It was simple to do, needing no special tools (I adapted reloading tools from my Craftsman socket wrench set), and gave me all the hunting loads I needed for the season in a few hours reloading. For clays I used 10-12 Gaugemates and 12 gauge Winchester AA Xtra-lites (1 ounce loads).
I�m sure you�re aware that older 10 gauge guns had 2-7/8� chambers.
I hope this helps with your decision.
Steve
PS I reloaded for upland hunting, so I kept my 10 gauge reloads on the light side.

Mark, my experiences have been that the 10 gauge will throw better patterns then a 12 gauge regardless of load. They have stretched and twisted the 12 gauge's chamber to its maximum in an effort to keep up with the 10 gauge as they have with the 20 gauge in their efforts to keep up with the 16 gauge, thinking that a bigger chamber is all they need in order to get equal patterns from a smaller gauge. However, does the better pattern thrown by the 10 equal or exceed the huge price difference of shells between the 10 and 12 gauge or does the better pattern thrown equal or exceed the inconvenience of finding suitable shells when up in a remote area of Canada waterfowl hunting. No!! They�re neat for occasional hunting, though.

Treblig has some good points. A vintage 10g is ideal for high flying western grouse as well. It surprises me that people focus on waterfowl with 10 bores when they are so well suited for prairie chickens, sharp tailed grouse and sage grouse.

The main difference between the two is weight. Most 10 ga. guns are 8 1/2 lbs and up, and also with 30" or 32" barrels. You have to take into consideration, do you want to carry a 9 lb. gun upland hunting all day, I know I don't. But they are nice to own and with reloading your own, you get many choices of loads that you wouldl not get in a factory shell.
Good luck in choosing one.

David...,but, but.

You can get 10g guns as light as 12 gauge guns. The 2-7/8" shells aren't horrible for recoil and they pattern better than a 12 due to their larger diameter.

You are not getting many choices of vintage 10 ga. American guns
weighing close to the average 12 ga. guns of 7 1/2 lbs.

The OP says he found one he likes, so we don't really have to discuss weight. He must like the weight. I wonder what he has found? What about that, Mark? US made light tens are scarce but not unheard of. I just sold a 28" 7 3/4 pound Parker ten. Nice gun.

Mark since you mentioned field I thought you might mean pheasant hunting with dogs. I have a ten pound ten gauge and it is unpleasant to carry all day behind my dogs while chasing pheasant.

Now if you were blocking while the line walked toward you ten pounds wouldn't be so bad.

Best,


Mike

I shoot a Lefever E grade 10 a LOT. Mr.Wood loaded me up some stuff for it in #5 shot and I bought a bunch from RST as well. The old girl is heavy, but, as i have said here before, it forces me to slow down my shots and my kill ratio is higher. I killed a rooster at 85 yards, laser measured..a couple of years back, and replicated peformance on stationary clays...I think I posted those pictures as well. The big 10's are a joy to shoot...I just passed that gun, along with cartridges to my boy Tom, in Iowa..Joe Wood shot a 10 Parker last year with great sucess, and had a big ol Texas grin on his face every time it went bang....You will love it..

You will see 10's as light as 7 1/4 lbs. every so often. The English built light 10's. I have an 1890's Crass that is set up as a pigeon gun at 8 lbs/30 in. m/f. Using 1 1/4 oz. 5's I have killed crows at 60 yds pretty regularly. Lots and lots of fun.

Lots of positive replies! Sounds like 10's are a lot of fun. The one I have my eye on is a very good original condition 32" damascus G grade Lefever. Most likely weighs 8.5lbs I would imagine. I do like the uniqueness factor, and I wouldn't be carrying it in the uplands very much (I use my 16's for that), Mostly just ducks and turkeys. Hmmm.....

Mark:

I have a 10 gauge Darne (a pretty rare gauge for a Darne) that weighs 7 pounds 3 ounces and there's a Lancaster SLE for sale on this site that weighs 6 pounds 8 ounces, so there are upland weight 10s out there. I also have an A. Hollis 10 gauge hammer gun from the 1880s that weighs 8 pounds 4 ounces. I would not want to carry it for long periods as an upland gun, but it's fine for waterfowl and turkey.

They are a lot of fun. The ammo is expensive, but no more difficult to load than any other gauge (and a lot easier than .410s).

If I could have the 10 of my dreams, it would be an Ithaca 10 gauge chambered for the 2-7/8 inch shell, but that Lefever you're eying might be a more than adequate substitute.

There is a compilation of 10 gauge data floating around somewhere. I think I have it saved in electronic form. If you buy the gun, drop me a line and I'll send it to you.

Rem

Hi Mark,

I have a Westley Richards 10 bar in wood with 27" damascus Brls. It is a 1865 hammergun and is about 7 3/4 lbs. I use it for ducks and geese mostly but sometimes I take it for phesants in the late season. I load 2 7/8 bismuth and some lead. Nice handling out of the duck boat. Someone told me it was a field gun. I also have a later Westley 10 hammergun that is a lot heavier.

Dwight

Mark, The one gun I've sold that I wish I could have back was an Ithaca NID 10, 3.5". However, it was a heavy gun and dedicated for turkeys. It didn't take long for me to get weary of carrying it. However, the gun you have your eyes on sounds like it would be fun gun for the use you intend. Do you need it? No. Do you want it? Yes. Buy it. Gil

In the next issue of the Double Gun Journal I believe there will be an article featuring a high-grade Hollenbeck/Syracuse Arms Company 30" 10-bore tipping the scales at 7 pounds/3 ounces. This gun looks and feels like a 12-bore.

As to shooting 10-bores, all my experience has been limited to modern, heavy 10-bore guns and 3 1/2" max loads; but for the standard turn-of-the-last century 10-bore, the standard load was a 2 7/8" case loaded with 1 1/8 or 1 1/4 ounces of shot. With those loads, 10-bores could be made very light weight, by modern standards; and should be very comfortable to carry and shoot.

When one considers the modern 10-bore, consider this example to illustrate just how dramatically shell technology has advanced since those early days. I recently acquired a few vintage roll-crimped 8-bore Remington shells with a loaded length of 3 1/4" (3 1/2" fired) and loaded with 5 3/4 drams of some unknown powder and 1 3/4 ounces of #2 chilled lead shot. A modern 3" 12-bore magnum has been loaded with 1 3/4 ounce, and heavier payloads for as long as I can remember. Given what technology has done with modern 10 and 12-bore shot shells, makes one wonder why the 8-bore was ever declared illegal in the first place? I vote we bring back the 8-bore!

Mark,

I guess you wanted to hear the good and the bad (and the ugly?). I don't want to rain on the parade but, I really did not care for the one I owned. I had an 0 Grade L.C. Smith, 32" barrels, damascus gun. It was solid as an anvil, but weighed nearly 10 lbs. I handloaded for the 2 7/8" chambers, which was no problem at all. I tried to like it. Shot it at ducks in Arkansas, clays here, just couldn't get used to that weight so far out there. It swung like a club, and I am used to long, heavy guns.
It was only suitable for turkeys, IMO.

If you really want to enjoy it make sure it balances better than mine did. Not trying to discourage you from buying a ten, just want you to make sure you don't mind toting and swinging what you buy. I know there are English tens that handle beautifully, but I think the good handling American tens are few and far between.

Good luck! SRH

My early Lefever E grade 10ga has 32" bbls & weighs a solid 10lbs, I don't carry it. Most American 10ga guns I have hendled over the years were not quite as heavy as this one, but most were also definitely more than 8lbs. I have handled a Barber & Lefever 10 ga hammer gun & while I didn't have opportunity to weigh it (at a gun show, no opportunity to shoot it either), it was lighter than most, I suspected close to 7lbs with its 28" bbls. If I had one like it I would carry it just for the fun of it.
W W Gereener stated at least prior to 1910 that the only advantage the 10 held over a 12 was when shot charges exceded 1�oz, he highly de-cried the loads with a powder charge of up to 5 drams under 1�oz in the 10ga & recommended instead a 4D-1�oz load. I highly suspect he was right. Bore capacity of the 10 is only 13% greater than the 12, while the 12 excedes a 16 by 21% & the 20 by 40%.

It is precisely your arguments which look like allowing the bigger-than-12 gauges back into the duck swamps here for the first time in many many decades... I'll keep people posted on that as it happens.

I wouldn't take anything for my 10.

Regardless of what posters say, the gun that the original poster is "liking" weighs what it weighs. If it is a seven pounder, it is a seven pounder. If it is a ten pounder, that's what it is. I own ten gauge Lefevers from 7-4 to 10-12. He has to know what he is buying without guessing what it weighs. Mark, what does it weigh? It is an honest question for the seller.

I have shot shotguns on game for 4 decades. I started shooting a Parker and Remington 2 7/8" 10ga aka short ten 3 years ago.

First, reloading is an absolute economic necessity unless you can afford to shoot RST 10ga shells at about $30 a box of 25. Crow hunting I go through around 800 shells annually.

Cutting hulls and reloading 2 7/8" is simple once you are set up for it, and it is very satisfying to shoot such a unique cartridge or so I think.

I can tell you that for long range shooting 50 yards and beyond, the short ten is heads and shoulders over 12ga. It's a blast.

The guns are heavy (Parker is 10-5, Remington is 8-12) and the barrels long (32"). Did I mention they are a blast?

And you don't have to shoot 10 gauge shells if 12s are easier.

Statistics are funny things, a smaller % of a larger number is a bigger number! The 10ga is only 6.3% larger than a 12ga BUT it's .046 bigger than a 12ga, .775 vs .729. Essentially equal to the difference between a 16ga and 20ga, .667 vs .615 or .047, although a 16ga bore is 8.5% bigger than a 20ga.

The 10ga was given a greater handicap and eventually banned from live pigeon shooting and trap shooting for reasons. The reason was it was too great an advantage for the man using it.

Beautiful picture! Very nice gun too

Wow! That looks like a lot of fun. You don't find swinging heavy 32" barrels at incoming ducks to be a hindrance? I only say that because sometimes fairly quick barrel movements are needed if shooting over decoys. I need to find out how much the Lefever weighs...

Mike, I won't dare get into an argument with anyone about it but here's my take on the short ten: when we talk about the differences in diameter of the bores in thousanths it seems rather insignificant. However, observed side by side the 10 is way bigger than the 12. As a result, the shot column is considerably shorter and I am convinced that the shot string is much shorter than any 12 is capable of. 1 1/4 oz. in a 10 seems to hit birds like a pancake--all at once! I haven't measured it in any way other than through experience. I seldom load any heavier, there's no need to. If I told you how far away I've shot ducks I'd have to lie so you wouldn't think I was exaggerating.....

FWIW, the heavier Tens require a really firm, smooth impulse into motion -- almost releasing a leaf-spring effect. Getting your torso and arms moving right from the feet on up will move those big boys into the line of flight and and the sheer inertia will follow thru. Just be aware that if you & your boots happen to be very deeply imbedded in mud, you well may follow the gun beyond a balance point -- yours. Happens.

Below ten pounds the needed effort is not so great and a properly loaded light Ten is just delightful for many games. IIRC, the Ithaca Super Ten [2 7/8's]isn't much over 8 3/4 pounds or so. Quite easy to handload. I would advise against shooting any vintage shells you may acquire, especially Super-X's. Those double based Nitro's may not age well. A like new-looking box of them put a nasty nick in the locking interfaces an L.C.Super Ten I had.

Otherwise, long live the fun of ye auld cannons. All honor to their history and use.

I started hunting pheasant at the tender age of 13 with my Dad's 1889 Remington 10 bore. The thing weighs 10 pounds. At the end of that first day my young arms felt like they were going to fall off. But I fell in love with it and used it most of my hunting life. Longest shot was 75 yards on a sharpie. Best shot was doubles on partridge. Now that Dad is gone it occupies the most sacred spot in my gun room. It's always the first gun I show off to visitors. My advice, if you don't mind the weight, buy it.

CrowShooter;
Note I did not say the Diameter of the 10 ga was 13% greater than the 12ga. I said its "Bore Capacity" is 13% greater, which is based on the square of the diameter. Thus .775�/.729� = 1.13. What this amounts to is if you loaded both guns to have the exact same length of shot column in the bore the 10 would hold 13% more shot than would the 12. There is in fact less difference between the 10 & 12 than any other two gauges in common use.
In the very early days of the 10ga many of those sold for field use as opposed to waterfowl were chambered for a 2 5/8" shell. The 2 7/8" length did not become the standard until later when the 10 had lost most of its favor outside the waterfowl blind.
I like my 10lb 10ga Lefever but it is not suitable for the type of hunting I do. Anyone who has or can get one which is suitable for their use I definitely say go for it. However the cold hard facts easily explain why the 10ga lost out in the popularity race to the 12. Until you get to heavy loads of large shot, it simply holds no real advantage over the 12.

My first ten is an 1889 Remington with 30" fluid steel barrels. I bought it the first week I was home from the US Army in 1969. I didn't buy it because it was a ten, but because it was stone mint, brand new and I just couldn't resist the condition. $200 was an astronomical price for such a gun in 1969. My first game with that gun were two groundhogs that had wandered onto the skeet range while I was testfiring with factory 1 5/8 ounce #4s. I didn't realize I was firing at two hogs until the first one dropped, revealing the second one. I pulled both barrels at once because a groundhog is a bit hard to kill with a shotgun. Since then, I have not given up pursuing the ten gauge.

The only cold hard fact is, you are wrong. Perhaps the 10ga you owned and shot would not outperform a 12ga. My experience is pretty extensive and my observation is 180 degrees opposed to yours. A bigger bore performs better.

Your 13% formula is still a large difference when it comes to a shotgun. It means the surface area of pellets affected by bore scrub and the height of the shot column being equal for crushing the bottom layers of pellets makes the 10ga with 1 1/4 ounce equal to a 12ga shooting 1 1/8 ounce.

I am hoping the original poster is not discouraged by your advice and I hope he notes it is contrary to most eveyone here who has put a 10ga to use on game and clays.

I assume you have given up pulling both barrels at once. Gil

Yeah, that was the last time I did that, but it didn't seem like much of a deal at the time. I was young, poor, and just out of the service. Nothing much hurt back then.

I did that once myself, simultaneously pulled both triggers of a heavy Spanish 10-bore using max-loaded 3 1/2" shells and #4 buck; making sure in the process to secure my shoulder between a stout oak tree and the gun butt to insure that expected recoil did not knock me flat on my a$$, and with the clarity of 20-20 hind sight a really stupid game plan. But the truth was that I actually didn't/couldn't feel a thing, for when I touched off those big loads, the shoulder wedged against that tree became instantly numb so that I lost my ability to maintain my grip and almost dropped the gun. I'm a lot older now, but not a whole lot smarter, so won't say for a certainty that I wouldn't try that stunt again; but if I ever did get drunk enough for a second attempt, I'd believe I'd scratch the tree.

10 gauge short tens are a fun to shoot here are my three Elsies, a11 30". Pigeon Grade, Quality 3, Ideal I reload using the loads developed by Sherman Bell.

And I can personally attest to the fact that Craig's 10-bore Pigeon is one danged fine gun, and very rare; maybe one of only 5 or 6(?).

well Yes, a 13% increase in shot load gives 1.27oz versus 1.125oz so actually just over 1�oz & likewise as circumference is based on dia & not ia aquared you would get an increase of bor contact of only the 6.3%, so at max range the 10 will always have a "Very Slight" edge over a 12. The point is it is "NOT" astronomical & is probablly beneficial to about 1 shooter out of about every 100 thousand shooters who concentrate only on attaining the absolute maximun range from a shotgun.
Now I have absolutely no way of proving it & I realize you are going to tell me I don't know whereof I speak, but am going to go out on a limb anyway. I will thus say that for every thousand crows you have killed with a tan gauge you could have killed just as cleanly at least 975 of them with a well loaded 12ga.
I shoot shotguns because I enjoy it. Virtually every shotgun I ever shot was "Fun" to shoot & at some point I have shot from a 2�' .410 to a 3� 10ga, I enjoyed them all & each has a place. Being more than 60 years though since I shot my first shotgun, A H&R 28ga single, I will say, there is virtually nothing which can be done with a shotgun, which can't be done with a 12ga while staying within todays laws.

Craig's Ideal ten gives me the shivers. However, mine is bigger than his.

A 1000 crows is pretty close to my latest annual totals. I would say the use of short 10 has allowed me to increase the number of my kills by about 10%, perhaps a little more. One reason for that is I will take shots at birds that are not fully committed or exiting a setup at ranges where I would not take the shot with a standard 12. The 10 not only gives a little performance advantage ballistically it also gives one confidence to take the tall ones. The 12 is always going to be restricted over a 10 due to bore size, it may not be much by diameter and volume but the performance increase in the field is greater than those numbers might suggest. The 12 is always going to be the 10's little brother, saying it can do the same thing a larger bore does is simply wishful thinking or rationalizing one's choice to use a smaller bore. I hope the original poster buys that Lefever and finds out for himself.

Crow Shooter;
In total agreement here basically. Any time two shotguns of differing gauges are compared the edge will always be with the one with the biggest hole down the barrel. This applies equally, in fact even more so, to the question of a 28 versus a 20, the advantage will always be to the 20. Since we are speaking of a classic old G grade Damascus Lefever I too sincerely hope he has decided to acquire it. However for the loads he should push out of this gun he should not expect it to magically give him any performance which could not be equalled with a slightly more modern 12ga using similar shot charges.
In fact any of the 3" 12ga guns which were built post the 1920s era for the new "Magnum" loads would out-perform any load which "Should" be fired from this gun.
It is a very desirable gun & could be most useful, it just won't "Walk on the Water", Cause the Blind to See", etc, etc.

Thanks for all the input! Based on all the pros and cons posted here, I decided to go for it. Got a great deal on it too. The gun appears solid in every way with no issues that I can discern. Nice patina overall with great color on the barrels, no dents or cracks. Weighs about 8.5lbs. The gun came from Sweden, but luckily escaped the swing swivel fairy. You can see it here:

http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_info.p...13a97f0a942e053

Damn, Mark. That's a deal. They don't call you Uncle Dan Fan for naught. Gil

You're gonna love it. And loading the short 10 is very satisfying. You'll get better patterns because of the shorter shot column height meaning less shot deformation. The big bore always wins out. Only wish my Parker lifter with 2 5/8" chambers was a pound lighter. Paul

Mark;
Don't know how you could have passed on that one.
It appears this is a two-hook model with plate mounted sears. I am going to assume he put an extra X in the SN & it is 18,78x rather than 187,8xx as stated. Lefever SNs didn't reach 100,000 by close to 30,000.
The 10ga is a good solid shooting gun, just don't expect wild miracles of pattern improvement. That vast difference of column height, if loaded with 1�oz in both gauges the column will be just about exactly shorter in the 10 by the dia of one #7 shot (.100").

Miller,

I'm going into it with eyes wide open and no presuppositions. I've been wanting a clean, original, affordable 32" G grade heavy duck gun to go with my H grade 16 upland gun, and I just couldn't pass it up as you mentioned. Clean, affordable 32" G's seem as rare as hen's teeth. Even so, if it was a 12, I would have gone for it as well. I noticed the plate mounted sears also, but how can you tell if it's a two hook? All I've ever seen are single hook guns. The serial # puts it in the 1893 range +/-, which is the earliest Lefever I've owned so far.

I like the fact that a 10 is a bit different, and as capable a gun as any sane person needs. It will be fun to be laying in my little layout boat, ready to defend myself from the evil attacking ducks with as classic a duck gun as there is. And if I finally go on that guided goose hunt of my dreams, I'll be ready

Mark;
My "Guess" was solely on the presumed SN being in the 18k range. The small hook did not seem to generally come into use until in the mid 20K range. An occasional lower numbered gun will be found with either a small or large hook. These are generally assumbed to be frames that for some reason stayed in stock & when finally built were given the latest style action, or else they were sent back to the factory for an up-grade so any type action is possibe, but odds are with that SN it will be a two-hook.
It sure sounds like it has found a good home, I am Happy for both you & the Lefever, enjoy it to the fullest.
Also far & away the vast majority of Lefevers with plate mounted sears will be two hook (or earlier) guns. The G however was not offered in the pivot lever guns as far as I am aware of. It also appears to have the frame cross pin about where the sculpting starts, which pretty well limits it to either a two or small hook gun, this pin not being used on the large hook guns.

"It also appears to have the frame cross pin about where the sculpting starts, which pretty well limits it to either a two or small hook gun, this pin not being used on the large hook guns".

Pieper is correct, the "frame cross pin" (or joint check pin) feature; which was designed to limit downward movement of the barrels when the gun was opened, was eliminated when LeFever placed their large cocking hook feature into production; therefore the joint check pin visible at the upper edge of the frame side radius cut should indicate this gun to have either Lefever's small cocking hook, or double cocking hooks feature. But I use the word should because there are always exceptions with Lefever guns; and I once owned one of those exceptions. This gun was a very light weight 12-bore G grade extractor with a serial number of 18999(?). Perhaps this was an early numbered frame used later in production; but when originally machined it was fitted with the joint check pin feature. On that gun the portion of the joint check pin visible inside the lug cut had been removed to accommodate Lefever's large cocking hook. Wish I still had that gun.

Topgun;
I think that several guns have surfaced with the large hook but with the cross pin cut out as you describe. Its function as the check hook was actually eliminated with introduction of the small hook gun but it was retained & served to cam the extractors on the small hook guns. AS LAC did offer to upgrade to the later actions when one surfaces such as this it is really near impossible to say if it was built that way or upgraded. Either way it is most likely "Factory".
On the single hook guns the lug pin reaching the end of the slot in the hook serves as a very efficient check. Be interesting to see which Mark's is.

A wonderful thread with lots of intelligent input, and it looks like a great gun to hunt kamakazie ducks or geese
with.
Among the many shotguns I should not have sold, was an LC Smith 10 Gauge with hammers and massive damascus barrels. The barrels alone weighed 8 pounds. It was a monster. I shot 50 skeet with it one night just for the heck of it, and if I hit 'em, they were gone. What fun!
Have a ball with it!
Sam Ogle, Lincoln, NE

Nice find, Mark. Have fun with it.