doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Beautiful example of American engraving on Flues

Dear Lord I could only hope it does not go to a museum. No one would ever shoot it again. It was meant to be shot and enjoyed in my opinion. Bill

Daryl, Without checking my records, I think Loy retired in the early 1950s. I have his retirement notice from the local paper on file someplace.

Without getting into a long discorse about the differences, Loy's style and execution shows English influence and, of course Kornbrath's work is clearly Germanic, particularly the use of motifs common to Austrian engravers.

IMO, its Loy's scroll work that helps identifies his work. I think Flues did some engraving. I briefly had the chance to purchase his last gun, a .410 double that he was working on just prior to his death. His grand nephew, with whom Emil was living said it was engraved by him (Emil). It was in some respects a bit crude but all done by Flues who was quite elderly at the time. The family decided to keep it. I have extensive photos of it and I think I put one in my Ithaca book.

Wait a minute, I don't have my hip waders on

Flues and Kornbrath engraving is not even close...Kornbrath was a classicly trained engraver (I have his original engraving school papers from Austria given to me by his son).

Joseph Loy had a secret signature...once you learn it, you can't miss his work except on the early guns be4fore he devoloped his secret signature

I'm not here to spout information, only to keep the record straight. Of course Flues was an engraver, have you seen the the most famous Marlin schutzen of all time? Have you seen the Ballard/Flues in Frank DeHas book on single shot rifles?
Flues breifly engraved for Baker Gun which is how he became friends with Kornbrath (not verified). He taught at least three apprentices to engrave, Sam Koch, Salvatore Licata(sp?), and Paul Koch. He engraved his patent model for single trigger patent 980147 granted him in 1910. It was his personal gun he kept until about WW II when he relinquished it to one of his apprentices, Sam Koch. This particular gun is not yet posted, but many Flues marked guns can be seen below.

https://sites.google.com/a/iroquoisarmscollectors.org/iroquoisarmscollectors/home/emil-flues-buffalo

Please note that Flues was also a believer in talismans.

Of course Flues was an engraver,and if you say it enough times it even sounds believable.

How many times would I have to repeat
"I remember seeing at the Rochester, NY gun show a fellow who had 6 or 7 Emil Flues guns. I don't recall who that was. Maybe Walt knows." (by Chris Schotz)
to make this sound beleivable? Yet that full blown fabrication stands. These guys know full well Loy's secret signiture and as soon as they get a closet full, they'll tell the rest of you.

Elsewhere on the Iroquois website you can find a pic of Frank Hollenbeck

To the serious students of engraving: If you really want to know how Flues engraving skills progressed after the Depression, the place to look is on Parkers. Paul Brobiel, one of Emil's closest friends, told me that when his father died (Flues employer from c1930-1948) he (Paul)sold 59 fake Parkers to a man who re-sold them as "Pachmyer upgrades" (1960's) (and one real Parker)

It's so nice of you who have this knowledge of fine American guns and their history to share with the rest of us. Thank you all. Paul

Well, I really like the single barrel trap by Flues,it's a tour de force, but I question the "most famous Marlin schuetzen" of all time remark. Too bad John Dutcher isn't reading this to jump in.

RDH45,
Sorry I wasn't more specific between Marlin and (Marlin) Ballards. In fact that Flues Marlin schutzen is the only Marlin schutzen I've ever seen. I was merely trying to bolster how obvious it is that Flues was an accomplished engraver even before he left Michigan c1906.

To the other readers,
I have asserted that some of the top dogs have been purposely misleading the the readers of this forum. I've waited until the timing was right so nothing would be ambigous. Still, I would have never posted except for Schotz's full blown fabrication that needed to be addressed before others started to believe it. He even called on Snyder to back him up in order to lend credibility saying "maybe Walt remembers"...like Walt maybe forgot seeing 6 or 7 Flues made guns in the same pile while smack in the middle of assembing a book about Ithaca with precious little information about their most important model. The more I think about this fabrication, the more it smells.

Prove me wrong Chris. Shame me in front of the other 500 readers who have read this post over the last week. Get one other ESACA member, like Walt, to concur that he too saw that pile of 6 or 7 and and I'll break out the catsup and starting eating crow with photos posted.

Again, I think that these guys know full well Loy's secret signature yet they're keeping it under wraps until they hog all the Loy engraved guns, just like they did with all the Kornbrath engraved Bakers. Shotz being the one of the main architects of that deceptive tactic.
Their silence tells me that I am correct. When the word gets around about Loy, watch how they all agree that it was common knowledge and they knew all along.
All of that is deception is acceptable to me. After all, knowledge is king especially when investment opportunities are floating by, but a person really crosses the line of ethics when they put up not only misinformation, they generate false gates. False gate is a locksmithing term which describes a mechanism designed to mislead an amature lock picker.
As a Flues researcher, had I not known who Chris Schotz is, and myself being a 30+ year member of Empire State Arms Collectors Association (Rochester Show), I might have takin the time to appeal to ESACA directors and try convince them of the historical significance of my search in order to view a list of display table holders across the 70's and 80's in search of that mystical Flues guru who had 6 or 7 Flues made guns. After all, I'm a 30 year member in good standing. I could have spent weeks trying to run down that false gate to no avail.

This is an exact repeat of the Baker tactics that resulted in the person who currently owns the Baker records saying he would rather let his wife throw them out after he dies before he would let someone hornswoggle him. And I understand.

Now you guys can tar and feather me yet again, for over stepping my boundaries about Joe Loy, but I will not stand by without at least trying to keep the history of Flues from being mucked up with fabrications and false gates for future unsuspecting researchers. Please note... that if this person were a real researcher, not driven by greed, he would automatically understand how potentially damaging his statements can be to other researchers.

Come on Chris, your one posted photo away from teaching all these guys the most important piece of investment information about Ithaca SxS's they are ever likely to learn. Surely a lifelong student of NY SxS's didn't chime in this conversation without advanced knowledge on this subject. Please redeem yourself by showing everyone that you didn't enter this thread just to post misinformation.

Anyone want to actually SHARE the secret Loy signature with me and the rest of the 'ribbon clerks' who follow this forum? Personal vendettas are tiresome...Geo