doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com In case you don't believe in Best Boxlocks

Come now, my good man, they aren't British!

IMO, about the nicest double,boxlock today is the Westley Richards droplock models, in either 20 or 28 bore. Of course there are other makes just as fine, it just depends on what each of us like. I also like the CSMC, Fox model, guns, exhibition grade or just below that.

Guys-

They are nice guns. No doubt. And I'm sure the work is first rate - 100%.

But I wonder about the quality of the actual components. From what I've seen, those aren't best-grade A & D actions. They are nicely finished, but aren't they missing some pretty basic, best-quality features -- like a removable hinge/cross pin?

Best guns combine best quality parts with best quality components, and you can't have the first without the second and the third.

It's an interesting subject. I would love to hear what everyone thinks.

Thanks,

OWD

Not only are they wonderful examples of gunmaking, but a great lesson in the vagaries of the definition of "best".

How many man-hours of work did it take to shape those actions, not once but three times in identical fashion?

Maybe a lot - or maybe not that much. Harkom may have farmed it out to a specialist who did that kind of stuff all day, every day.

Sumner's shop was turning around fully engraved Boss SxS in under a week.

And while the fences/toplever area is very detailed, the body of the actions aren't. This Scott Reliance had more work done to it:



OWD

Beautiful guns and a trio,wow! Thx for sharing.

How does it compare to a Webley A&W 51 action as they are considered good boxlocks.

BTW: check out this sidelock Harkom:

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/LargeImage.aspx?image=/lotfinderimages/d20096/d2009659x.jpg

A FINE 12-BORE SIDELOCK EJECTOR GUN BY J. HARKOM, NO. 2293
The lockplates inset with gold-inlaid cocking-indicators, best foliate-scroll engraving with traces of hardening-colour, boldly-figured stock with butt-plate, the browned fine damascus barrels with game-rib Weight 6lb. 10oz., 14 7/8in. pull, 29�in. barrels, approx. I.C. & 3/8 choke, 2�in. chambers, nitro proof

I wonder which one the maker considered to be his best?

OWD

The boxlocks give nothing away in quality to that Rogers type back-action sidelock. Nothing at all.

I'm not sure where you are going with this OWD - simply finding guns you like better and saying "see this is better" doesn't inform us very much. The type of hinge pin only indicates the early nature of the guns, the double dog cocking levers influenced this choice and were expensive and complex to make and fit.

I was not offering up a challenge with the photos, they are best quality by any measure. I just thought they would be interesting for people to see.

BTW, for those interested in provenance, they were made in the late 1890s for Sir James Ramsay-Gibson-Maitland, who became the 4th Baronet of Clifton on the death of his father in 1876.

This discussion is seeming to have devolved into a back and forth as to whether a boxlock can be a best or must it be a sidelock. A good chunk has been a discussion of workmanship, as it should be.

But quality of material and workmanship aside, what inherent characteristics of either type make them better or worse for what they are designed to do...fire a load of shot down a barrel. I'm thinking reliability, trigger feel, weight distribution as it may affect handling, anything about the design, not the specific execution on a specific gun.

It strikes me, neophyte that I am, that the sidelock/boxlock discussion is very much like the London/other discussion. While London may have been the centre of the universe for high quality guns and their use of the sidelock to denote best gun status has been widely acknowledged, these seem to be issues of branding and marketing, not of fundamentally superior design or levels of workmanship that could not have been done elsewhere.

Dig, I would say you accomplished your intent...those guns are interesting and I suspect most of us are glad you posted the photos.

Small Bore,

Are the Harkom boxlocks ejector guns & if so what ejector system is used?

Very nice guns. I absolutely love the fences & the way the dolls head & 3rd bolt are done.

OWD,

The Scott Reliance may well have more detail work done to the sides of the action but to me it's not nearly as attractive as the Harkom guns.

Re. lack of features that make a gun a best. In general I agree with you but:

1.I think you need to consider what the standard of manufacture & materials were for a best gun at the time the gun in consideration was made (i.e. you can't discount a damascus bbl gun as a best because it doesn't have chopper lump bbls as no one made chopper lump damascus bbls that I am aware of).

2.There are always exceptions such as Westley Richards detachable boxlocks which have fixed hinge pins & would by most people considered to be best boxlocks if not best guns period & early H&H Royals some of which had dovetail lump bbl construction but would still be considered best guns by most people's standards.