doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Beautiful example of American engraving on Flues

Canvasback,
No you don't understand my position. Just because you just found out doesn't mean everyone else did. I've known for years and I was told by someone else. If I was told, Schotz was told first, and the way he plays up to some of these guys, surely they know too.

I was here when the Kornbrath hogs quietly soaked up all his work, which would have been cool if it hadn't been done under a cloud of misinformation, deceipt, and flat out burglary. Your talking to the guy who reported Joe Reece (ESACA member)to the district attorney's office.
I was right here at this forum whe someone (fishingkid or something) turned up with the one of rarest L C Smiths "Mark's Special" only about 3 or 4 known. Do you think any of these LC experts would tell this kid? No, some reader who specializes in Liege shotguns had to get bashed for telling him (that's me)

Dude...Does it look like I want to perpetuate secrecy? I'm asking you again, does it look like to you like I'm perpetuating secrecy, (which is your accusation).Just what are you getting at here?

All I'm trying to do is let out some overdue recognition for Loy for all the regular folk who suffered through my barking at Chris Schotz. And I want to let out the info without getting goose piled. If I'm ambiguous then I can choose not to defend my post. It's that simple, not secret.

Remember, I came to this thread to try and keep the record straight about Emil Flues...in a conversation about Flues Kornbrath and Loy. I told near all I knew about these three men, yet you make no recognition of that. These readers now have the knowledge to swim with the sharks, but it wasn't my intended conveyance. I'm not an Ithaca or engraving expert, but you don't have to ba an engraving expert to see the difference between Loy's, Kornbrath's, and Flues' engraving. Why then would these experts on American shotguns be discussing this seeming nonsense? Because at least some of them are testing to see who understands what...like any good shark, they're testing the waters.

Again I came here as stated in an earlier post, to try to keep the record of Flues straight...nothing more...unfortunately, I had to cough up what I knew about Loy as a consequence, but it was never my intention, or I would have said years ago.

Robert, first let me say my experience with you personally through this and more particularly other sites has been very favorable. I want to be clear, I am not accusing you of anything. I have been reading this thread with interest, as a relatively new enthusiast. I don't collect Ithaca's and have no interest in starting. And I have no personal relationship or knowledge of any of the other members here you have referenced in your posts.

I am trying to understand your position more clearly. That's all. I can't do it now, but perhaps I should re-read the entire thread.

I would add that I am the kind of person who says what I think or know and lets the chips fall where they may. If I meant to accuse you, I would. If I am asking a question, it's not to be leading but because I don't know the answer and I am curious. It strikes me that ths being a public forum of double gun enthusiasts, the purpose of which is to share knowledge, that's what we should be doing. However I am not so altruistic to imagine there aren't some who might not be as forthcoming as they might for the possibility of financial gain.

My apologies canvasback...I'm shell shocked whenever I post here...In years past I had to call the police to stop the 2am phone calls screaming racial slurs for asking an Emil Flues question...you probably won't believe me, but years ago I was nearly tarred and feathered for telling some kid that LLH on his Ithaca Flues model meant the tubes were imported from a Belgian manufacturer L Lochet Hebran. Someone else with that mark said "you tryin to say my American made Ithaca has furrin barrels?" I didn't understand that he was asking me like those was fightin words. So I continued to say oh yeah most all US doubles had European tubes...I was probably being a smart mouth by saying stuff like "what did you think Krupp on your barrels meant? Well all hell broke loose... and I got roasted...

Now, of course, it's common knowledge but I foolishly thought so back then. There were several other goose piles back then but then the chemistry began changing. I posted about the difference between the Remington boxlocks and the improved Remington boxlocks. The info was initially met with skepticism and eventually played out to everyones benifit. We all understand the model 1894 a little better now. But out of nowhere I got goose piled for something unknown. Eventually I needled out of the expert, what had negated my entire post(s) was a misspelled word.

Most of these guys learned more about Flues and Loy in 2 posts than all books and magazines published. That's why I couldn't understand your perspective. Basing my responses in past experience, this is how I must do things in order to keep from being goose piled. You saw how some of these guys responded... to them, Loy and Flues, both considered American masters, were just a couple of flying turnips. Persons who stuff threads with "comments" while knowing nothing of the subject being discussed are essentially jamming the thread. This is a very effective strategy adopted by "trolls" worldwide. What I can't understand is why the bum scoop mills never get jammed with "comments".

I haven't told you the half of it...please forgive me, I'm so beyond shell shocked...and I apologize

Robert, it seem that you do take small things to heart easily. Really, let it go.

It seems you know your Ithaca's very well, and if you enjoy the engravings on them, that is again your choice, but I have seen engravings on some Ithaca's and other guns be it American or European, that there are some "flying turnips" on them. If one cannot see this, then they haven't compared them to others with great game/dog engraving scenes. It would have been better if they left them off and used a type of rose and scroll.

So don't be so sensative, be a teacher to those that are willing to learn, and ignore the bad ones, they are in every bunch.

What the heck is goose piling? Must be a Yankee term.

SRH

I received a phone call from the Buffalo Bill Historical Center's curator stating the the Kornbrath's personal Flues made gun is a boxlock. Tom Mix's gun no longer resides at the museum.
Also worth noting...shortly after Ithaca Gun Co began producing the Flues model, IGC had sue to Fox Gun Co, still in Phiolidelphia, for patent infringement in order to stop manufacturing of guns based on the Emil Flues 1895 patent 516546.

If anyone owns a pre 1908 Philidelphia Fox with unusual mechanicals, perhaps you have a Fox Flues model. There was a small write up on this law suit in the Syracuse Post Standard on Saturday August 15th 1908, in which Flues himself testified. The article indicated that the Fox Flues gun had already been being produced.

Numerous additional photos have been updated to the Flues and Newton pages at the Iroquois website but I could not get a legible copy of that 1908 article to post. If anyone has a legible copy of the article, or photos of a Fox Flues model, please consider allowing Iroquois to post the info in their database for everyone to see.

Well, Robert, I'm still waiting for the post in which you declare either Flues or Loy to be the artistic equal of Winston Churchill.

I've got a feeling I'll be waiting a while.

I made an opinion comment that the engraving of these two men was not up to Churchill's level of work. After which, you saw fit to assume I was a gunmaker of some sort, and my opinion of any engraving should be based upon what type of craftsman I am. What type or level of craftsman I am has nothing to do with my opinion of the engraving Flues or Loy produced. Ditto Rabbit, for what it's worth.

You have made it clear of what you think of Chris Shotz, let me be the first to suggest that I vehemently disagree with you. He has been nothing but civil to me, here, and in the few times I have spoken with him about a gun that falls outside my area of interest. I've never bought or sold anything to him, but, I would do either, based on what I've seen.

Your posts here invariably have a way of snowballing out of control. You post a bunch of information irrelevant to the discussion, like how Flues built the gun, knitted the barrels together, hogged the action out with hand tools, etc., but, never get back to the main idea I posted, which is a lot of the engraving, animals in particular, aren't lifelike, and just plain suck when compared to another engravers
work.

So, let's hear it, Robert. Let me hear you say you hold the engraving work of Flues or Loy in higher regard than Winston Churchill's.

That was my only point prior to you "goose piling" on me with a bunch of other nonsense, Robert.

Best,
Ted

Brer Rabbit not gettin stuck in this tar baby but to Ted: The aminals are admittedly a bit outliny on some "later" Flues guns (1918 onward). Strange to say, I was looking at a "later style" Fox XE (the back end of it anyway) and on the bottom of the action is the worst cartoon dog/badger/bear? you could ever hope for but it's always the Parkers and Smiths and Ithacas than take the heat for flying turnips and dog cartoons. I don't punch my initials into any of em because they're what was available to be put on a gun for a price by US. Extremes can be tedious. I couldn't pay for a bulino hologram on a gun action and lucky for me don't want one. And some of stiffest, deadest, taxidermy engraving I've ever seen was on the receivers of model 12s. Somehow that stuff has street value. If there's a cutter I admire, it would be Ken Hurst but I'm not in the commissioning class so's I got to make do. As for the paranoiac, nothing I'm wanting and nothing I'm taking.

jack

Look at the pheasants and the doves here, Robert:

http://wchurchill.com/engraving.html

Compare it to Loy's work. Also to Flues. Expalin (there is the spelling error, so, you have that outlet to debase anything I posted, if you want) to me how you feel either of the old masters work is superior, and upon what you base that opinion. You can feel free to post an opinion of the scroll work of Flues or Loy being superior to Churchill's, too, if 'ya got the seeds to do that on a public forum.

Still waiting, Robert.


Best,
Ted

Ted,
Don't get your panties in a bunch...I was tryin to heed the advice of posters, that I have been given repeatedly...

most recently by JDW
"So don't be so sensative, be a teacher to those that are willing to learn, and ignore the bad ones, they are in every bunch." (Ted are you reading? That's YOU ...I was trying to ignore you!)

Has anyone here ever learned one bit of information from Ted? I just shared more information in this one thread than I have read anywhere else on these subjects. After all, it's what the readers are truly here for...the bulk of the readers are here to learn whatever they can that will help them to be wiser investors if and when that time comes. I speculate that of the 3000 reads since posting Loy's touchmark, at least a few hundred came away with something that may help one day at a gun show...I now just offered up evidence of a most unusual Fox sibling....I could go on listing but it would sound like I'm again blowing my own horn...

Instead, perhaps you could list a few things the regular folk have learned from your 3,388 postings...just a few please...

OK...so maybe you have no academic achievements to back up your 10ga mouth...How about mechanical acheivements? Let's see some of your smithing skills...I know you said your engraving skills are lacking...leaving it to the readers imagination that you're at least somewhere between Joe Loy's level and Winston Churchill's level. ...or maybe ANY of your masterful skills. Surely you have something and you're not just a bag of hot air. Have you even put a muzzleloading Dixie kit together?

So maybe you're not simply a troll...let's see you're cards...You show photos of your acheivements and I'll show mine...the acheivements don't have to be world class or even well executed, just show something so everyone knows you're not wind bag like Chris.

Here in western New York and western Pennsylvania, the gunnies have Schotzisms (nobody calls them schotzisms, I just didn't have a better word to describe them) ...for example when someone is trying to sell a gun missing vital parts they say (jokingly) "any competent gunsmith can make that part quickly"...another Schotzism..."I only buy high grade Bakers" which loosely translates into I only buy Kornbrath engraved guns for under $500...or how 'bout this one..."it's a factory prototype" ...We learned these tactics from Chris, so we associate these tactics with Chris...so please let Schotz off the hook by not defending the indefensable while standing on the unassailable postion of defending Churchill at the same time...but I do hope you get you're dream date with Winston as a result of staunchly defending him. (even if it is in a conversation that has NOTHING to do with him....you go girl!)

OK crockodile mouth...show your stuff..let's see your academic or mechanical merits in this field of endeavour...prove to everyone who suffers through your troll postings that in fact, you have numerous redeeming facets to your personality...

Oh yeah...I almost forgot to say, thank you for keeping this thread fresh at the top