doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Purdey 450 reloading problem

Hi guys, need your help! I have a .450 3 1/4" BPE Purdey top lever hammer double rifle in excellent condition. Here is my problem. I bought Hornady dies, Jameson .450 cases. I full length resized the cases, they will not fit by about 1/4" in the rifle. I have a couple of boxes of original .450 BPE rounds (not the early coiled brass)and they chamber fine. The base diameter is not the problem as the Jameson is smaller, it seems to be part way down the case the Jameson is bigger, even after resizing. thanks for your help! The island lock Purdey was built in the early 1890's and has steel barrels.

Start with a chamber cast, but I bet you knew that, once you know what the chambers look like you can make the appropriate changes to your case. Might need a custom die.

Thanks Steve, I did a chamber cast with cerrosafe and the problem seems to be in the taper of the chamber. AT 1.5 inches from base, the chamber mikes .5140 and the full length sized case is .5155.

Gary, If you want a stopgap measure, you you can try putting a wrap of Scotch tape around the case where it's over-size and then running it through the sizing die. This makes for slow loading, but it might suffice until you get a proper die.

That is a good idea Rocky Mtn. The plot thickens, however, as I tried the sized cases in my early Holland hammerless double rifle made in 1888 and they will not go in the chambers by about 1/2". Makes me think the Hornady sizing die is too large, or are chambers cut for .450 nitro's a little larger than the black powder cases? Again, the original BPE rounds fit perfect.

OK, taking a stab a this,
Do you have 450 3 1/4 inch Nitro Express Dies or do you have
450 3 1/4 BPE dies?
I know dumb question but had to ask
The NE case is slightly bigger than the BPE case and that could be the concern.

Mike

p.s. And I did not see the BPE die set as a choice on the Hornady webpage.

I have had the same type problems with older obsolete cartridges as many did not conform to the latest dimensions. The answer
to the problems is to Have Dave at http://www.rockymountaincartridge.com/
make cases to your chamber.

RCBS used to make dies that were custom fit from cases that worked in your chamber. I've done that on several vintage doubles and it worked great.

I'm going to guess that you will neck size only once you have fireformed cases for your chambers. Rather than a full blown custom die, I'd suggest you find a machinist who will chuck up a 7/8-14 bolt and bore a section of the needed taper into it. This will shrink your cases sufficient for fire forming. It should be a good bit cheaper than a custom die. If you are really lucky, you might find someone with a chamber reamer that has the correct taper - that makes this a very easy job.

Also look here

Sherman Bell's article in the DGJ V 10 Issue 3 Express Rifle

and here

http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/453506/...point-box-of-50

But I would be using cast bullets

These may also help

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/161900/...-point-box-of-5

Mike

Hi Skeettx, the dies are Hornady 450 3 1/4" Nitro Express. I had a suspicion that they could be different from 450 3 1/4" BPE dies. I have collected double rifles since 1971 and haven't shot one in 30 years and decided to get some reloading equipment and try.

More research

The .450 Nitro Express 3.25 in (83 mm) was the first Nitro Express, developed around 1898 by John Rigby. This cartridge was based on the then popular .450 Black Powder Express case with 70 grains (5 g) of Cordite and a 480-grain (31 g) jacketed bullet. Muzzle velocity is listed at 2,150 feet per second (655 m/s) with 4,909 ft�lbf (6,656 J) of muzzle energy. This straight case has a length of 3.25 in (83 mm) with a .670 in (17.0 mm) rim. [1]

Early cartridges used the black powder case that was designed for around 11 tons of pressure per square inch and not the 17 tons of pressure that the Cordite load generated. Case extraction was difficult, especially in warmer climates such as Africa and India where the cartridge was primarily used. To remedy this problem, a reinforced case was produced and Kynoch made a reduced load to lower the case pressure.

Now more thoughts
Since this is a tapered case, if the shell holder were shortened so the case could enter the die more, would this assist?

Mike

I was thinking of that myself, I don't think it could be thinned enough to make a difference. I might try Rocketmans idea of getting a sizing die made to fit my press. My brother has a metal lathe and a milling machine if needed. I used to shoot bore rifles and 8 Bores are a heck of a lot easier to load for with plastic cases.

OR, you could use a 45-70 seating die and gradually screw the die down until you got what you needed.

Now that's an idea I need to look into, would solve my problem as I could size until the case would fit. As said before, I would only need to neck size after firing if used in the same rifle. I am near Cabela's and can get some 45/70 dies. I'll need to research the dimensions. Thanks again.

After many loadings, my.450 cases swell enough to cause chambering problems.I remove the neck expander,put a smaller shell holder in the press,place the case on top of the shell holder and run them all the way into the die,well lubed of course.Tap your cases back out with a hardwood dowel.
I don't know if you will gain enough in your rifle,works for me.

I'll give that a try too! That might be enough to chamber in the Purdey, maybe not in the Holland.

I have an 1885 H&H 450 BPE 3 1/4, that I had the same problem with, as you are having with Hornady brass (note- Eley BPE rounds fit perfectly). Superior Ammunition(Larry-Sturgis South Dakota) couldn't get the nitro for blackpowder rounds to go in the chamber after all kinds of adjustments. The recommendation, have the chamber reemed out. One custom reemer made $160. I gave the reemer to the gunsmith (Les Pittman). I am happy, Superior Ammunition is happy, and Les Pittman is happy. End of problem.
Herb

lots of good info on this forum, thanks guys. I think I will call Les Pittman tomorrow and talk to him about it. That might be the best solution. My .450 Purdey was featured in an article by Sherman Bell in the Spring 2000 DGJ. I might try some of the other ideas first.

AH, problem solved! I hope. I found a Lee .510 bullet sizing die and put it in the press. I lubed a .450 case (one that had been full length sized in the .450 nitro dies)and ran it into the die. Presto, case fits perfectly! Thanks for all your help, lots of great ideas from you guys.

SWEET!!! Congrats on the Victory
Mike

Need help again, I have been using a new set of Hornady .450 nitro dies and new .450 3 1/4" Jamison cases. Kynoch .450 nitro ammo will very easily go into a .450 Purdey, .450 Holland and Holland, .450 Alex Henry and a .450 Nitro 1902 Webley, yet the new Jamison cases after full length resizing do NOT fit in any of the rifles. The bases of the Kynoch and Jamison mike the same as does the case mouth. The middle of the Jamison cases after sizing are larger than the Kynoch cases and prevent the cases from chambering. Do you think the sizing dies are suspect? New to reloading.

OK, here is a trick, take a sacrificial shell holder and grind a bit off the top, this will allow you to push the case
further into the die. Die should be flush against the shell holder at full stroke.

If this does not work, have other ideas,

You have the Nitro dies, thought you were going to get some of the correct dies??

Mike

Hi Mike, since I last talked to you I picked up a .450 Nitro Webley 1902 falling block along with a box of nitro Kynoch ammo. The Kynoch .450 Nitro ammo fits perfectly in all 4 rifles. I am thinking there is something wrong with the Hornady dies. I was assuming the chambers were smaller on the three blackpowder double rifle, but it appears they are the same as the Nitro chamber. I would think full length sizing the new Jamison cases in the Hornady dies would enable them to fit in the 1902 Webley. The sized cases stick out about 1/4" from chambering in all three rifles. Thanks a lot for your help.

Sorry, I should have said all FOUR rifles.

Ask CptCurl on Nitroexpress.com forums. He moderates the double rifle forum and owns and loads for Purdey .450s.

Gary,

Under no circumstances should you alter the chambers on your rifle.

Early .450BPE chambers had some variation. I learned this in much the same way as you. I have a nice G. Gibbs .450NE I had loaded for many years (RCBS dies). I acquired my first A. Henry .450BPE thinking I was already set up to load for it. I ran into the same problem as you. Fired cases re-sized in my RCBS .450NE full length sizing die wouldn't quite chamber.

I discussed the problem with Stan, in the RCBS custom die shop, with whom I have had various dealings over the years. He confirmed that prior to full standardization there were several different concepts for .450 3 1/4" cartridge dimensions. I sent him Cerrosafe casts of my Henry chambers, and before long I received a perfect custom sizing die.

I have run into the same problem with the .450/.400 3 1/4" also.

Call me if you want to discuss. Proceed with great caution. These are treasures not to be harmed by our handling!

Curl

I agree with Rocketman.You can find where the interference is by smoking,applying dykem or magic marker to a case and pushing it into chamber.Then you can tell what size die to make( it doesn't have to be exact,just smaller than the interfering part of the chamber).
Mike

Hi Roscoe, you are 100% correct! I had a second set of Hornady dies sent and same results. Hornady thought there was a defect in the first set. What threw me off was that a full .450 nitro 1902 Webley falling block also would not chamber the rounds. That makes all 4 rifles with smaller chambers. I will contact RCBS after I make a few cerrosafe casts and see which chamber is the smallest. Need to order a die set for that chamber. I noticed CH 4D sells a .450 BPE die set, what do you think? Thanks again.

I'd send the chamber casts to Dave at CH4D and have him make a set of dies based on your chambers.
I've had this problem with RCBS dies before. No Problem with the dies at all. Just the basic chamber problems caused by no standards like CIP/SAMMI back then.
There were no set bore sizes either. SLUG THE TUBES!

Who/what is CH4D?

CH4D is a company that builds custom dies, Dave is great to work with & probally has whatever you need in stock or send him fresh chamber castings & he will build a set of dies to fit your chambers.

m-4

MANY Thanks, guys - That's a great tool to have in your back pocket! I seem to recall that RCBS stopped making custom dies awhile back, is that true? If so it's wonderful that someone else is out there picking up the slack. Thanks again.

Gary,

I prefer RCBS dies to CH4D dies, even though the cost is higher.

I wouldn't buy a stock .450BPE die set because you might have the same problem.

I would have a custom die made to Cerrosafe casts. RCBS will do this.

You don't need a whole die set, just the sizer.

Curl

Thanks again Roscoe, I will contact RCBS and send a Cerrosafe casting to them. I miked an original .450 Nitro Kynoch unfired cartridge and 3/4" up from the base it is 10 thousands smaller than a case run through the Hornady dies. I thought the BPE rifles had different chamber specs, but the 1902 Webley .450 Nitro also would not chamber the Hornady sized rounds. I must say that Hornady customer service was excellent and immediately sent me a second sizing die to try.