doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com re Otto Bock Berlin

Hi everyone,
found your forum while trying some research on 'Otto Bock' and decided that I have to join!

let me introduce myself:
Name is Gunter, retired, 30 years in England - not far from London; before that some years in the big apple and parts south of it; before that some years in Kenya (it helps if you work for airlines)
Hometown/country: Dusseldorf, Germany

Google directed me to the thread 'Info on Otto Bock Konige' from 2009

I bought a combination gun 'Otto Bock Berlin' some 18 months ago and got interested in finding out more about that 'gunmaker'
I contacted the 'Waffenmuseum Suhl' in Suhl, Germany - they confirmed that the action and barrels were made in Suhl but could give no further information as to which of the Suhl gunmakers actually made them.

My gun is an O/U (not a 'Drilling') 16b/7x57
and according to the date stamp 939 made in Sept. 1939!
So Otto Bock was still in existence at that date.

Unfortunately the 7x57 barrel was at some time drilled out and sleeved with a .22lr barrel
The shotgun barrel has a removable barrel insert ('Princess' Germany) in .222 Rem. which was fitted by a gunsmith and carries the gun's serial number.
So the gun can be used a a 16b/.22 or a .222/.22lr which in my book makes it a 'Fox Gun' and that is what I use it for.
Nevertheless, the gun was cheap enough and it still is a beautiful piece of gunsmithing.

I'll try to attach some photos here, but with my luck this might not work - we'll see
(doesn't work - pics are on my pc, not on a website......)

Best regards

Gunter
Life Member NRA (USA) since 1976

Welcome

If you use www.photobucket.com you will have ease in posting your pictures.
It is FREE
Again WELCOME.

Mike

thanks to Mike for the welcome and tip re photobucket.

here goes: [img]http://s1254.photobucket.com/albums/hh614/gmtrans/[/img]

Does anyone know what the letter 'Z' near proofmarks indicates?

regards
Gunter

http://i1254.photobucket.com/albums/hh614/gmtrans/Verschluss31.jpg[/IMG]

Congratulations on posting some pictures
Takes some folks years or decades

FINE LOOKING GUN!!!

Mike

the company of Otto Bock Berlin seems to be somewhat of a mystery - have been searching the net for some time now and apart from the info that he 'invented' the 9.3x62 cartridge in 1905 there is very little that I was able to find.
-apparently as a 'german' big game cartridge for the boys in the colonies - if I understand correctly as an equivalent to the 375 H&H Mag. (before WW1 there was 'Deutsch S�d-West', now Namibia, and Tanganyika, now Tanzania) - and of course he would have provided the rifles in that caliber, not a bad business plan!

If I remember correctly, the reason for the new cartridge was that the abundant Mauser actions of the time were too short for the longer cartridges like .375 and the 9.3's i.e. 72 or 74mm
therefore those calibers were only available in expensive double rifles (break action).
By shortening the cartridge to 62mm he could use the Mauser action and produce a relatively cheaper gun.

I found an address somewhere as:
Kronenstrasse 9, Berlin

google earth shows that address right in the centre of Berlin, near where the Imperial Palace ('Stadtschloss' I think) used to be (the East Germans blew it up (what was left of it after WW2) in the 50's or 60's.

Otto Bock was imho most likeley 'Hoflieferant' to Kaiser Wilhelm II

The action of this gun reminds me of a Merkel 213 which I used to own (20b/.243) so perhaps the action was made by Merkel?

Difficult to say, but perhaps someone on this forum might have some idea.

I noticed that you already have some german-speakers on this forum, but if I can ever be of help with a translation, I'd be happy to oblige.

regards
Gunter

The script L, or Z as you refer to as did I, is the stamp of one of the tube makers of the Boys Kelber, Louis or Wilhelm, post 1927, I believe. One will find it on the tubes of upper rung sporting weapons. Pretty high serial also so I would say a larger concern. Have you checked the sides of the lugs for a Merkel monogram or something similar? Are those Birmingham marks at the knuckle?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Hi Raimey,
thanks for the info on the 'Z' or rather 'L' = Kelber.

There is absolutely nothing on the lugs.
The only mark which I had overlooked
(or thought it was part of the British reproof marks (my god, they need a bloody big gun to find space for all the marks they find it necessary to stamp on!)
is the one on the attached photos (the round one in the centre)
which is on the left side of the lower barrel just in front of the extractor.
(2 photos because I think one is clearer than the other but can't make up my mind which one)

Looks like it could be 2 marks, one overlaid on the other?
Could that be an anchor?
Confused!

re marks on knuckle: yes, BNP - Birmingham - Nitro Proof


thanks and regards
Gunter

does someone have information on this mark? (the round one in the centre of pic with fig. 9(?) )

I have no idea whether this is part of the English reproof marks
or an original german one - and if so, what it is.

thanks
Gunter
Life member NRA 1976

Gunter:
That is one beautiful gun. Even with the modification done to it I for one would love to own it.
Jim

Jim,
yep, that's exactly what I thought when I saw it in the London auction catalogue about 18 months ago.
I knew that it probably was a 'Suhl' gun by looking at the engraving.
I put in an 'absentee' bid and won it at about 50 Pounds below my max !
Was I happy? - hehe - does a bear .... in the woods?

Have since been trying to find out which of the Suhl makers actually made this gun (not that it is that important - but these things grow on you... )

regards
Gunter

Gunter:
Hopefully Raimey will be able to help you out here. I see you're located in Great Britian. Was there any problems with registration/licensing due to the rifle barrel?
Jim

Jim,
no problem with registration as I have a firearms licence (FAC) and several other rifles.
It can get a bit tricky sometimes as you have to prove what you 'need' a particular caliber/rifle for!
Either as a member of a target shooting club or have (written) permission to shoot specified game or vermin on specified land!

Much more difficult than for you guys in the good old US of A!
Make sure that the idiots don't succeed in taking the 2nd A. away!
As a member of the NRA I get a copy of the American Rifleman every month and I read it with interest from the first to the last page.

As you know, here in the UK we lost ALL our handguns in 1997
which put a full stop to my no. 1 sport.
I used to compete internationally in pistol target shooting.

The British Olympic Pistol Team nowadays has to go to France or Switzerland to practice! Can you imagine that?
(not sure whether the team still exists, but the above was true a few years ago)

Raimey has already given me some good info - I had overlooked that round mark though and only added a pic of that after his contribution.

Best regards
Gunter

Yes, that is part of the reproof, date I suspect, from the little British Isles.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

As I think I stated, that's a very high serial number & with the 1/2 pipe side-frame reinforcement, it should really narrow the field. Sauer's serial number sequence was a little below that and Greifeldt, Merkel, Simson/BSW should have been about 1/10th that serial number. The contour of the 1/2 pipe side frame reinforcement doesn't mimic Greifeldt either but for sure it is some maker's Bockbuchsflinte(?).

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Francis:
Do you mean Brummie?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
thanks for the information on serial number/reproof mark.
that narrows it down in that I can disregard the makers you mentioned and try to find which of the remaining Suhl makers would have had guns in that range of Serial number.

Any info on where Krieghoff serial numbers would have been in 1939?

The serial number of this gun is 366005

Yes, it is a Bockb�chsflinte, or BBF for short.

Forgive my ignorance, but what is a '1/2 pipe side frame reinforcement ?

Best regards
G�nter

Ja- das ist Korrekt!!

Ah, I use odd terms from time to time:


1/2 pipe where I think Merkel & Simson had the full pipe, but I may be thinking post WWII.

Sempert & Krieghoff may have been around 31k and I'm not sure on Krieghoff. It may be that the sporting arms division was Sempert & Krieghoff while Krieghoff filled the military contract?

Kind regards,

Raimey
rse

About twenty tears ago I owned an Otto Bock cape gun,5.6x54R, 20gs, and another set of barrels 20ga x 20ga and a claw mounted scope. Under lever opening. The rib was marked Otto Bock, Berlin, Maker for the Noblity. A friend now owns the gun.

I don't know if it's true, but my friend tells me that Otto
bock was involved in the business of the inventing and manufacture of artifacial limbs. Very interesting, if true.

I have come across that company in my travels through google while trying to find info on our Otto Bock.
Otto Bock Medical Technology, Berlin - they do indeed make artificial limbs apart from other scientific stuff.
ottobock.com is their US site in english.

That firm is still very much in existence.
I assumed that they had nothing to do with our Otto Bock, but may be wrong.
Perhaps I should enquire by email whether they have any relation to our Otto Bock.

Regards
G�nter

Otto Bock in 1907 at 52 years of age shouldering what is said to be a Nimrod with his loyal gundog Heiko. I think it says that Alice took the image or made it? "Nach einem Gem�lde von Frau Alice Bock-Wiukelrtiunn."


Period Nimrod Advert for Thieme und Schlegelmilch

Otto Bock hung out his gunmaking shingle on April 2nd, 1883 and had quite the 25th anniversary celebration in April of 1908. It may be that he received his Royal appointment at the same time? At the time of the founding, he seems to be heavily involved in taxidermy. Seems the story of collecting raptor eggs in Mecklenburg-Strelitz as a lad in the 5th grade? is true. From circa 1890 he was closely involved with hunting by supporting the young hunters as well as being receptive to the needs of veteran hunters with I think led to his bullet 9.3mm steel metal jacket bullet design. There was some Hauptmann Roth who kept his ear bent. And guess who was either his apprentice, employee or both: Paul Stadelmann who later owned E. Schmidt & Habermann. So guess where Otto Bock would have sourced. He reared 2 daughters and 3 sons, one of which was also Otto Bock.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=260244&page=1
Thread on Otto Bock DR

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

I always called that a bolster.

Glossary-Bolster

I jokingly call it a "putter head." I wonder if I should add "pipe" and "half pipe" to my glossary. I wonder what a B�chsenmacher would call it. I have found that when it comes to engraving terminology there are sometimes differences between German and Austrian engravers. Perhaps there is some different terminology among Austrian and German B�chsenmacher also.

Regards,
Roger

Raimey: I think the phrase "nach ein Gemaelde von Frau Alice ..." is meant to say that the pose of Otto and his dog in the photo was set up to follow or mimic the poses in a painting previously made by Frau Alice. It's the kind of thing one will sometimes see in an art gallery or museum where a piece of art is, e.g., "after an ancient sculpture from [insert]" or "after the original in the [name of museum]", and done by a contemporary artist. Chances are Frau Alice didn't take the photo - she was a painter - and may have been long dead before the photo was taken.

Chances are, someone saw the painting and then saw Otto and his dog and said "I saw a great painting of a man and his hunting dog, and it could have been you and your dog. We could make a nice portrait, posing you and your dog like that."

I haven't been able to find anything on Frau Alice googling her name, but that could be a function of some misspelling inserted somewhere along the line or her having been [relatively] unknown as an artist.

Roger, thanks for the insight. I would like to see pipe & 1/2 pipe side-frame reinforcement added to someone's list. What I find interesting is how the reinforcement is masked by the talent of the engravers.

Dave in Maine thanks for giving the phrase a once over. With the images, i.e., putting a face with the name, it of course begins to define the firearms merchant and in my mind reduces the unsavory taste that would be associated with a firearms merchant as he, or she, heavily relied on the talent of the pool of craftsmen in some gunmaking center. I for one would like to hear the unsung song of the very talented mechanics who actually made the sporting weapon. But then again the firearms merchants were businessmen and it was all about the Benjamins.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Dr. A. Berger utilizing the 9.3mm bullet design of Otto Bock.


Otto Bock, Junior with his beginnings of a hunter and quite the shot.


If I have the gist of the tale correct, Otto Bock, Jr. was with his father at an Inn. The youngster asked the Innkeeper if he could warm up his scattergun or break it in on some pigeons that were scattered about the roof. In short order Otto Bock, Jr. began to pile them up and the innkeeper with a glass of lemondae attempted to persuade Otto Bock, Junior to give it a rest.

I still haven't found where Otto Bock, Senior, born in 1855 and should have been a master by circa 1880, was awarded his appointment as supplier to a court and as stated on a previous thread he may have been just supplying antlers. But he did use the title heavily for advertising and marketing.
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=159483&page=1


In this 1890/1891 advert I see where he has won some medals but he doesn't appear to tout the Royal Appointment as antler supplier.
Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Well, I stand corrected as his warrant was circa 1900, or a year or 2 before:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_preu%C3%9Fischer_Hoflieferanten
(copy & paste/go)
From above he had gold medals in Berlin in 1886 and in Cassel(Kassel post 1928) in 1889.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Thanks for the further info, Raimey.
Now we even have a picture of the man himself!

If I read the date stamp on my gun correctly, my gun was made in Sept. 1939 - so the company must have still been going into WW2. Probably with Otto Bock Jr. or perhaps it was taken over by someone else.
I have not been able to find anything on Otto Bock after about 1910 on the internet.

Best regards
G�nter

G�nter, I lose the concern in the mid 1930s. Don't forget his loyal companion. It is difficult to search with other Otto Bocks in Berlin(established in 1873):


As far as I can tell this is not our beloved Otto Bock and if not some of his info may be entangled in the info thus far.


Info suggest Otto Bock, Senior, was a whale of a taxidermist and he must have had multiple Royal appointments:

"Otto Bock K�niglich Hoflieferant Tierausstopferei und Jagdger�te Handlung Berlin W 8 Kronenstrasse 7
Kollektion ausgestopfter Fischfeinde "

"Hoheit der Gro�herzog haben dem Otto Bock, Inhaber einer Waffenhandlung und Tierausstovferei in Berlin, das Pr�dikat als �Hoflieferant" zu verleihen geruht. Neustrelitz, den 23. April 1906."
This is an April 1906 dubbing but he advertised as being a supplier from circa 1900/1901 onwards.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The 1906 was a dubbing from the Grand Duke whose seat was in Neustrelitz, different, I suppose, from the earlier 1898-1900 verleihungen.

As to the other Otto Bock:
"Ziegelei" are brickworks, so the Otto Bock the Ziegelei-Ingenieur was a specialist in brickwork (firebrick, probably) for "steam", falsework, chalk, gypsum and cement factories. He appears to have written a pair of books about bricks and brickmaking.

He might have been a customer of Otto the Hoflieferant, but that would have been the extent of it.

From a Who's Who in Germany 1896, published in 1897 Otto Bock is listed a supplier to the court for antlers, taxidermy and apparently dabbled as a sculptor? So it is a little earlier that 1900 but his adverts up to 1894 do not have the appointment but have him at the same Kronenstra�e 7.

Otto Bock, Hoflief.(Hoflieferant) Sr.(Seiner) Maj.(Majest�t) des Kaisers, Berlin W., Kronenstr. 7. Fernspn-Amt I, 1999. Jagdausr�stung, Hirschhornwarenfabrik, Tierausstopferei, Bildhauerei.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Baumgarten & I have been chasing the early Polid Antikorro serialization from some time. He has a tubeset with No. 280 and this Otto Bock peddled sidelock has No. 270. Very difficult to tell but the stamp just forward of the flats may be a set of crossed palms like that seen on Paul Scholberg's examples.








Otto Bock


Paul Scholberg with Poldi Tubes with a S surmounted over crossed palms.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Hi all,

still searching for information on my Otto Bock BBF.
I have learned a lot about Suhl guns of the period, and Otto Bock for that matter, but unfortunately nothing that brings me much nearer the answer as to who actually made the gun.
(Apparently the company of 'Otto Bock' existed until 1945)

Schmidt & Habermann was a hot contender, but apparently their serial numbers would not quite have reached 366005 in 1939.

the search goes on

While reading through the threads here a few days ago,
I came across a mention of a mark on barrels that looks like a double J (?)
I think that it was said these marks were doubled -
i.e. 2 double J marks?
Of course, I cannot now find it again - getting old, should have bookmarked it!

I had another, very close look at the barrels today and I found these marks partially hidden under the british proof marks! At least I think that's what it is...









the only mark that I found on the net which is similar, is the old Sauer & Sohn trademark, but it's not really close - unless there were variations of it?



I am hoping that these marks may get me a step further in my search, if anyone knows what they are.
Also, if there is some information on serial numbers out there - has anyone come across a pre-WWII Suhl gun with a serial number around 360xxx where the maker is known?

Even knowledgeable people in Germany are intrigued by the high number!

I refrain from making any comments about last tuesday as otherwise I would probably be arrested, should I visit the US of A during the next 2 years!

Best regards
from England

G�nter
NRA Life 1974

I've seen both stamps many times but not positive to whom they might belong. The one closer to the steel type stamp is something like a wide WK while the other looks to be an interlaced JY or YJ. The marks are common for the time period. Let me see if I can find a better image.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Gunter:
Below is what I remember to be an E. Schmidt & Habermann/Oscar Merkel & Co on the floorplate with similar stamps along with MERCO. It has the Kelber script L as well as the interlaced J&Y. I had referred to this pair as a double duck stamp as if you view it from the side it does somewhat resemble a duck head. Anyway, let me search for additional images as well as a maker with a 366xxx range serial number.



http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=183924&page=all

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
thanks for that.
I would be very grateful if you could find any information on the serial number. As according to answers from Germany the number - judging by a photograph provided - seems to be original (without an 'added' figure), there must have been one of the makers in Suhl who used that particular range of serial numbers in 1939.



Do you have any info on what the interlaced J&Y (or 'double duck')might stand for?
I have made a comparison in PhotoDraw of your picture and the marks on my gun and attach it here.
I absolutely think you are right and that the marks are identical. Please correct me if I'm wrong



Having spent the last two years trawling the forums on my quest
and taking the information found, mainly provided by this forum, so far the possible makers of my Otto Bock BBF seem to be Schmidt&Habermann/Oscar Merkel or possibly Bernhard Merkel.
The main problem still is the question of the high serial number.

Comparing the pictures I have seen on this and other forums on german double guns, the action of my Otto Bock seems very similar to the above mentioned makers.
Perhaps someone can confirm my observation or confute it?
Here a picture again:



Best regards from England

G�nter
NRA LIFE 1974

My 1st guess is on of the Jaeger klan but um if, if I had much of the data acquired on makers in a searchable format(M-4 will love this) then some predictions could be made. I think many were consumed with ramping up for the war effort and the number of sporting weapons tube makers may have been a small pool.

On Otto Bock, on more than one occasion I have seen these trademarks attributed to him.


He must have thought he was twice as good as Sauer with the double Herkules, whatever with a piece of wood in hand.


Not sure on the animals.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The stamp after the bullet on the Krupp steel type stamp is what I think yours also wears. This Robert Sch�ler wears this mark.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The stamp after the steel type on the B. Merkel sourced Carl Gr�ndig peddled sporting weapon doesn't appear to be the same but something of a R & K intertwined??? But the tube maker's marks lower on the tube may or may not be the same. The intertwined J&Y is typically seen on the upper rung sporting weapons peddled by the high end waffenh�ndlers.





Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Also I forgot to note I believe that some of these stamps are some combination of German cursive.



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

the 'Krupp-Laufstahl' with bullets in your photo of the Robert Sch�ler and also the mark behind it is identical on my gun
(no Krupp Rings)
Also, in your photo there is what looks like a capital letter'D' on the center barrel behind the lug.
This letter 'D' is also on my gun
I have taken this as an inspection mark, but am not certain.
Does this mean that the barrels at least have gone through the same workshop?

just behind the date stamp




Best regards
G�nter
NRA Life 1974

could the 'double duck' mark be a letter Z in cursive?
(perhaps intertwined with another letter)
the other mark after the Krupp Laufstahl bullet, which also appears on my gun but only as a fragment I can't make out - perhaps something to do with Krupp Laufstahl?
Looks to me like a walking man in your photo

Best regards
G�nter

Shops, yes the same shops. I've been preaching, probably to the choir, but all of these upper rung Waffenh�ndlers sourced the same small pool of very talented mechanics. So if you take the marks on all of these firearms merchants and sort them, more than likely it is going to really narrow the filed of which mechanic did what. A D is common on most non-Sauer sporting weapons noting some component sourcing and from memory it may just point to Gebr�der Decker or Deneke & Company. If one searches articles by Fredrik Franzen, his articles on upper rung offerings may have similar stamps.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I still think the "double duck" stamp is an intertwined J&Y but let me still search for a better image of the stamp. Otto Bock sourced the whole of the continent so I wouldn't attach much to the serial number until the marks have been accounted.

Z-M sourced with Louis Kelber tubes:
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=159483&page=3


This E. Kerner appears to have been started earlier that 1943 but it may have similar stamps after the bullet on the Krupp Steel stamp. E. Kerner could be another choice of the K in a rhombus.


Note the script L as typical. I don't think the Boys Kelber let anything but quality out of their shop(s).

F.W. Vandrey thread:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=160489&page=2


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I just have to make more room to pen on the back of my hand references to these marks!! Or assemble all the data. I finally found for what I was searching. Most of the answers are here on the site.


Gebr�der Heym Suhl founded in 1913 - I seem to recall that Walter Steiner was a lockmaker in the 1930s onward at Schlagetera�e 43 while Richard and Bruno(& Emil?) Heym were at the helm. The firm may have ceased in 1948.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=233293&page=all


Hermann Weihrauch Zella-Mehlis O/U late 1940s


Most of the time a tube wears a brace of these J&Y/double duck stamps but this R.G. Owen/Amrusch is one that wears a single, possibly noting only 1 task.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=231195#Post231195

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
thanks for all the new information.
Now that I have seen the 'double duck' for the first time clear in close up, it does look like a J and a Y

I could try and send that close-up photo to the Waffenmuseum Suhl, perhaps they have an answer
Would that be OK? (it's not my photo)

Best regards from England

G�nter
NRA Life 1974

I believe it is Chipmaker's and I would assume he would like to know also, although I don't expect to glean much info.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Looks to be 3 of those intertwined J&Y on this A. Sch�n Suhl.


A. Schoen Gewehrfabrik Suhl - June 1929.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
I have contacted the Suhl Waffen Museum regarding the JY mark (with photo) and also asked whether they might know which of the Suhl makers had a number in the range of 360.000 in 1939
Waiting for an answer.

On your latest pic (A Sch�n) the 3 marks on the left of the pic seem to be 3 different marks?
I make out one JY - what are the other two?
I have flipped the photo to see the JY right way up - which may show the other two upside down?





Best regards from England

G�nter
NRA Life 1974

Upon closer inspection the stamps are the intertwined RK, or whatever it is, then 2 of the intertwined JY with one inverted with respect to the other and a "Crown" over "S" in between.


Intertwined RK on an A. Sch�n Gewehrfabrik with "4079 AS" in between.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I may have posted the Bock-Paul Stadelmann connection previously, but a translation effort by G�nter on a Bock article reminded me that Paul Stadelmann was an apprentice or employee at Otto Bock's concern. So when Paul Stadelmann made the transition to E. Schmidt & Habermann(co-owner) that would have greatly strengthened or established a sourcing line from Otto Bock to E. Schmidt & Habermann. I think the mechanic Paul Stadelmann to be a central figure and needs more study for post 1900 upper rung German sporting arms. Also wanted to rekindle interesting in Otto Bock's wares.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Still chasing that JY tube forge mark as seen on the Springer DR 9.3X74R sourced from Suhl and completed in Wien in 1939/1940.




Note the EK, whatever, which is seen along with another lowercase script k as seen on Baumgarten's Eblen & Mr. Fink's Daly.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Wow. Where's that freakin' gun? It looks pretty awesome. The third bite looks pretty unusual.

OWD

"gun was made for Prince Franz Josef Windisch Graetz, grand son of Kaiser Franz Josef" - I think I've posted it prior on this site. It is either owned by a friend in Russian or a friend of a friend and Geno was the one that brought it to my attention; maybe Marc will know. I believe Springer attempted to re-acquire it?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Yeah, I don't know if the metal on the bar is 2 tone on the Springer DR or what. Difficult to tell from the image but it does not look exactly like the Lovely Lovena below. Some say the adornment is too busy, but I for one can't wait for Mr. Felix Neuberger to pen and publish his article on Lovena to see if it is know who performed the tap, tap, tap.


Lovena



This Lovena's ownership is in the same circle of folks as the Springer DR I believe.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey you are correct this double rifle is now own by my Russian friend Sergey, Springer wanted aquire the gun back but my friend refuse to sell it.
I have more pictures of the gun but I doubt Sergey gone permit to publish his fotos.
Marc.

Thanks Marc and I believe it is/was for sale on a Russian site at some high sum and the images are there:

http://forum.guns.ru/forummessage/187/1051047.html

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, yes the same gun.
Marc.

G�nter:

Getting back to that intertwined JY/YJ stamp, a single version of it appears on this Sauer 37xxx, so it may represent a descendant of the tube maker or a collaboration.


Sauer 16 bore hammergun





And the intertwined stamp is seen on this Jan Furbacher Mesto Zdar, Vysocina, Suhl sourced, A&D boxlock from 1932.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

G�nter:

The following wears the same forge marks we are chasing and just one ledger would ID the source.


Eustachy Dmytrachl Lvov example sourced from Heym.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

is it my imagination or do these forge marks (JY) appear very often in conjunction with Louis Kelber marks?

The 'Suhler Waffen Museum' might have some files/documents in their cellars but it is getting very difficult to get answers from them lately - probably too many enquiries and they have other things to do.

Perhaps you get lucky one day.

Best regards
G�nter

G�nter:
I wasn't going to say it but keep posting until you took note. We must be on the same wavelength or my efforts are most revealing. I might go as far as to invoke happenstance, but that's about it. The following Carl Gr�ndig peddled drilling from December 1929 looks to have the same marks as well as the EHk as seen on Baumgarten's bunny dispatcher retailed by W. Eblen,
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=275230

along with what looks to be Wilhlem Kelber's stamp lower, closer to the lugs. With the Kelber marks, I wonder how much effort was devoted to the scattergun tubes? But it does seem that the marriage of these mechanics marks originates at E. Schmidt & Habermann, which Emil Stadelmann may have owned prior to Gebr�der Stadelmann.

http://www.jagdwaffensammler.de/drilling-schmidt-habermann/gruendig-drilling.html




Proofed in the final state, Carl Gr�ndig waffenh�ndler.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Just to keep it straight in my mind:


Baumgarten's Toprail drilling/bunny dispatcher/Schienendrilling/Waldl�ufer/Woods Loafer/Off Season Drilling with script EKk or EHk


Mr. Wes Fink's Charles Daly Regent Diamond which experienced proof in January 1931 and additional info can be found in GGCA Nr. 37 at page 9.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Max G. Fischer, Berlin sidelock

G�nter:
Seems as there may be another variant with an intertwined G? I don't know if I have posted it prior on this thread.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
that looks indeed different from the 'JY' version, although at first sight it could be mistaken for it.

Am I right in thinking that these marks are likely the
'tube forgers' marks? (and the Kelbers for instance would finish the barrels?)
they seem to be mainly in line with the (i.e.) 'Krupp Laufstahl'
script near the bullet.

I put the 2 pics of 'JG'(?) and JY together for comparison

Best regards
G�nter
NRA Life 1974