July
S M T W T F S
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30 31
Who's Online Now
5 members (Tim in PA, Tom Bryant, Vol423, Jtplumb, 1 invisible), 161 guests, and 3 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics38,723
Posts548,229
Members14,442
Most Online1,344
Apr 29th, 2024
Print Thread
Page 6 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 11,000
Likes: 214
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 11,000
Likes: 214
Nice find Mr. Hallquist as the concern was correct as was the date but different patent number. But it appears that 400 Nitro Express had already informed us on the history of the grip catch:

"The same rotary locking method was then patented by Wilkinson Sword Co. (James Wilkinson) for fastening fore-ends in drop-down barrel action guns. The 1866 screw grip fore-end fastener patent (the familiar side-swinging fore-end lever) was by a Wilkinson workman, which made it Wilkinson's property. Wilkinson Sword Co apparently sold the patent to Rigby before it expired."

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=149435&page=1

I wonder if that mechanic was Charles Harvey?

Are 400 Nitro Express and Kerryman still with us?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,293
Likes: 215
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,293
Likes: 215
Raimey, do you have that Patent number for the 1866 screw grip forend fastener by Wilkinson ? I cannot find it.

Likewise, a Wilkinson gun is marked "Wilkinson, No. 27 , Patent, 1866. I cannot find that one in the volumes of Abridged British gun patents. This gun does have the lever forend.

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 11,000
Likes: 214
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 11,000
Likes: 214
I thought you had it???? When can one procure the British book of novel ideas from the get-go? Me thinks we are very close to the truth if someone can locate the purchase of the patent rights by Rigby.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,293
Likes: 215
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,293
Likes: 215
Raimey, maybe so about the Rigby purchase, but we don't seem to be able to locate the Patent rights by Wilkinson or any other, from whom Rigby might have purchased. I see no concrete info on the original patent number or any subsequent sales.

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 11,000
Likes: 214
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 11,000
Likes: 214
Originally Posted By: Daryl Hallquist

Likewise, a Wilkinson gun is marked "Wilkinson, No. 27 , Patent, 1866. I cannot find that one in the volumes of Abridged British gun patents. This gun does have the lever forend.


Well then, it appears we are still in patent attribute fantasy land but I would assume the "No. 27"( of Pall Mall) a component of the address being the same as Charles Harvey. I have found a document of the 1886 patent listing:
http://books.google.com/books?id=BWsyAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA95&dq=william+wilkinson+%26+son+british+patent+of+1866&hl=en&sa=X&ei=17qOT6aNOYWa8gTxg-2gDg&sqi=2&ved=0CEgQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=william%20wilkinson%20%26%20son%20british%20patent%20of%201866&f=false

So getting back to 1st principles, Sometime prior to 1853 accomplished swordsman John Latham was taken into the Wilkinson & Son fold as he married one of the daughters of Henry Wilkinson, son of James Wilkinson who was the son-in-law of Henry Nock. In December of 1853 a document was penned detailing an agreement for the transfer of the company to John Latham. Henry Wilkinson's retirement may have been in 1858 followed by his demise in 1861 due to cancer. John Latham looks to have been an excellent manager and under his direction the thrust seems to have been along the lines of edged weapons. Also the 1860s look to have some drama to the agreement and subsequent takeover which seems to veil any improvements in breech loaders.

Note too that John Rigby moves to London in 1865/1866. Anyone hazard a guess of the date of the 1st Rigby with the grip catch?
Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 266
Likes: 26
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 266
Likes: 26
In reviewing every bodies posts I think the answer is in here somewhere. If as Justin states this "grip fore-end latch" is illustrated in the patent submission C Harvey/Wilkinson Sword
pat #1793 of 1866 it establishes Prior Art on the design and would make any future attempt to patent it in it's own right strongly contestable. Additionally patent applications were quite expensive to submit, it was then, as now common practice to make the application as extensive as possible in effect covering all possibilities. If this latch arrangement were Mr Harvey's original Work/Intellectual property it would be covered by this patent even though not specifically called out or the principal object of the patent. Subsequent interest and adoption by the trade may have resulted in payments being made and rights purchased to avoid litigation. Given that it was clearly shown in Harvey's #1793/1866 no later patent would be considered valid under US Patent Law


Hugh Lomas,
H.G.Lomas Gunmakers Inc.
920 876 3745
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,293
Likes: 215
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,293
Likes: 215
Hugh, that's an interesting take, but almost all gun patent improvements show the improvement on a gun for illustration. Many times the gun is recognizable, although the patent drawing just illustrates how the improvement relates to a gun. Patent #1793 of 1866 shows a gun with a lever forend latch, a forend , barrels , hinge pin,"Jones" underlever, etc. But, the text of the patent makes no mention of any forend latch at all. The only thing the patent text deals with is the retracting firing pins.

Last edited by Daryl Hallquist; 04/19/12 02:45 PM.
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 534
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 534
In current patent law, only the content of the claims is protected. Everything else (figures, text body) that is described is unprotected and can be used by anybody. However, nobody else can claim those ideas as inventions because they are now "prior art".
Today, companies & individuals publish papers to describe ideas that they don't want/need to protect, but don't want anybody else to claim either.
Of course I have no idea what the 19th century British patent law was, but I would suspect it was the same.

Best regards,
WC-

Last edited by WildCattle; 04/20/12 10:32 AM.
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 11,000
Likes: 214
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 11,000
Likes: 214
Some images of the drawing of Charles Harvey British patent #1793 of 1866 thanks to the efforts of Mr. Hallquist.





Is a component of the Grip Catch at the knuckle under the protection of Charles Harvey's design?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,293
Likes: 215
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,293
Likes: 215
Actually, Raimey, the information and images were supplied gratis thanks to the kindness of Veena Mapara-Popescu, Press Officer at the British Patent Office.

Page 6 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2024 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 0.093s Queries: 35 (0.070s) Memory: 0.8569 MB (Peak: 1.8997 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2024-07-24 02:28:18 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS