doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Double Rifles, Paradox Guns & Gauge Rifles @ doublegunshop.com F. Kettner Combination Rifle Koln-Suhl

I have a beautiful Franz Kettner Koln � Suhl Drilling rifle temporarily in my possession. I have found that this firm was in business from the 1890s until 1939. This rifle belongs to the son of a G I that brought it back from Germany at the end of WW II. The story he got from his father was that he took it from a pile of surrendered weapons in a village in Germany. The serial number matches on all parts.
This combination gun , as you can see, is a two barrel set.
One set is a classic drilling with twin 16 gauge tubes over a 9x57R rifle barrel. This set is 231/2 � long and profusely marked as seen.
The other set(I�ve forgotten the German term for this configuration) is twin 8x60R rifle barrels over 1 16 gauge shotgun tube. This set is 26� long and minimally marked.
Both sets of barrels are marked �Krupp Lauftstahl�.
The gun is profusely embellished with typical deep incised German engraving. The locks are of the back action type.
The trigger guard, butt plate and Pistol grip extension are all fashioned from horn.
Unfortunately; The original claw mounts and scope sight are missing. I can only speculate that the family didn�t turn these in with the gun since the weren�t, in fact, a weapon.
I will only have this gun in my possession for a few days and I promised the owner I�d find out as much as I could from the very knowledgeable members of this forum.
Jim











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Jim:
Can you oblige us with an image of the standing breech as well as any marks forward of the flats. The 1st tubeset passed thru the Zella-Mehlis facility in 1927. The 2nd set experienced proof in 1935 in Suhl. Also how about an image of the bottom of the lug on the 1927 set? The Oak leaf & acorns on the 1935 tubeset is very similar to the mark of one of the Kettner Boys. Note the sideclip extensions on the tubes.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Will Do Raimey and thanks for your quick response. Here's a couple more pictures that won't fit in the original post.
Jim

Raimey:
Here's the additional pics.
Jim

Thanks Jim. Any monograms on the standing breech or on the left side of the barrel lugs? I've seen the initials E.W. on others, maybe a Ke�ler, W. Eblen of Stuttgart or the other cat from Stuttgart(G. Wilcke ??). Maybe Baumgarten will be by shortly and refresh my memory. I'm assuming the WK initials are on the 1935 set? For a moment, it seems odd that the same serial number was issued to the 2nd tubeset. I'm curious if the same supplier had it made.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey:
I just knew this was going to be a fun one! I'll take more pictures if necessary and I'll give the tubes another once over tomorrow when the light is better. Thanks for you help.
I will only have this gun in my possession until Monday so I'm trying to work fast.
Best:
Jim

Jim, another request among the interested would be a side view of the horn on the Prince of Wales grip. Franz Kettner(K�ln/Suhl) must have had his own serial number sequence or the Zella-Mehlis craftsman the he & Eduard sourced must have mainly focused on upper rung offerings. The stamps "KAL" & "EK" seem to be a staple on their offerings:





Rob's Franz Kettner #2643

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=210425&page=1

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

This set of E.W. initials are on a F.W. Ke�ler sidelock drilling



The serial number range isn't Ke�ler and it is possible that Ke�ler sourced the same small pool of talented mechanics as Franz Kettner but some of Ke�ler's offerings are similar.


Roux Hahn Drilling w/ Ke�ler's name atop.

SDH-MT's Schlegelmilch Mauser with block E.W. initials:


http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post114163


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

And then there's what looks to be a set of E.W. initials on an early lower scear C. Daly






Also what is given as RTS

Not that any of the E.W. mechanics are related or the same.
Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Jim,

Wow! What a striking example and a great save by the GI that pulled it from sure disaster. Please try to take some pictures of the wood and butt-plate as well. Unfortunately I have very little information on Franz Kettner. The "WK" on the plain set of tubes I believe is the stamp of Wilhelm Kelber.

Raimey,

The fifth picture from the top of the ornate set of tubes appears to show traces of what looks like the "heart" stamp which I believe is also a Kelber stamp, what do you think?

I have to go now and try to get my jaw back up where it belongs.

Buchseman

Incredible....gorgeous.

Here's some additional pictures of the wood and grip extension.I'm going to try and do a writeup on this gun for the owner and would appreciate any information you might have on the Kettner firm. I will also look for any additional marks on it but what's in the picture of the standing breech is all that's there.

Update:
I just went over the gun again with a magnifying glass and found "WK" in script on the two rifle set of barrels. This mark is just behind the forearm lug.
Jim

Interesting piece of horn, there Jim. Any idea of its function? I was hoping M-4 would chime in with his thoughts.

Mike Ford chimes in via email to note that the maker of additional tubesets would serialize the new set to the sporting weapon and many times stamp the number of sets on the action flats. I have seen the same but on the barrel flats. He also notes that the 1927 set has 16 bore 65mm chambers while the 1936 set has 16 bore 70mm chambers.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I would posit that the horn grip addition was an attempt to copy what became known as the Eschen(sp?)Grip, pioneered by Fred Eschen, who was Rudy's father, who is Joel's dad. Fred wrote a treatise on shooting and was a very strong advocate of the more pronounced grip angle for better gun control in target & flyer shooting. He was also a very fine shot and coach and was active & well known & respected during the time frame this gun was made & being used.

FWIW, Rudy became known as 'Mr. 870' and was simply incredible as a shooter for Remington and a fine gentleman as well. I want to say that Fred ran/managed a rather exclusive gun club in Florida before the depression, but I may not be remembering that correctly. Rudy, I spoke with on a number of occasions. Fred was before my time, but I have his book & think it is quite possible the owner of this gun did as well.

edit: It is also possible that the original owner of the gun visited the club where Fred managed & instructed, but that will have to fall into the bucket of pure speculation, though it is not outside the realm of reasonable. Whoever that gun belonged to originally, they had means.

That piece of horn in the pistol grip: my speculation would be that the gun was inherited or bought by somebody with very small hands, or some other physical problem. Hence the addition to improve the grip of the right hand.
Regarding the "Etchen grip": a similar type is still popular in Germanic countries and called the "Kaiser grip", by hearsay invented for the German emperor Wilhelm II, who had a crippled left hand, and shot using the right hand only.
I remember having seen several rifles discussed in the internet, from Scherping in Hannover with such a steep pistol grip.

fuhrmann

Jim,

I don't have anything to add but just want to thank you for taking the time and effort to post this beauty. That's the kind of gun that got me interested in Germanic guns.

Thanks,
Roger

I want to take this opportunity to thank everyone who has taken the time to contribute to this thread. Because of the advantages of modern technology we can gather information in a matter of a few days that would have taken months to put together prior to the Internet.
Again thanks to all and I will appraise the current owner of what has been discovered on this informative thread.
Jim