doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Boxlock with intercepting safety sears

Do intercepting safety sears add to the value of boxlock shotguns? They seem pretty rare. Thanks for your opinion.

Rare on what? English boxlocks, American boxlocks...yes, intercepting sears are a bit rare on both of these countries boxlocks. Continental boxlocks, they seemed to value intercepting sears more than anyone else, many of their guns were built with them.

Dustin

To me they add value, if only as an indication of probable quality of the overall gun.

1910-24 Belgian guild.

They were typically present on higher quality pre-war German guns, indicating that the Germans valued them. For instance, Sauer typically only put them on their Model XVIIs and XVIIIs.

Sauer XVII

Greener FP and FH guns all had them.

T

The Husqvarna 310s have intercepting sears.

I think most of the VL&D Francottes,though perhaps not the lower plainer BLs ..but for sure their nice SidePlated BLs had them too.
I, like Joe , thought it a nice extra touch, indicating a better built gun?
franc

I don't think anyone would argue there are many more boxlock shotguns out there lacking intercepting sears than those that have them. I realize some boxlocks do have these intercepting sears. My question really is, is there an increase in value of a boxlock shotgun with intercepting sears as compared to one without? I tend to believe they are more valuable because generally they reflect a better built gun and therefore probably command a higher market value. But, by what percentage are they more valuable? Or, are they actually not worth any more money at all than a similar boxlock without the intercepting sears?

Not all that many people recognize them, Buzz. I like the concept. But given two guns exactly the same, one with and one without intercepting safety sears, I doubt a dealer would price them any differently--although a knowledgeable buyer might prefer one over the other.

Larry: As usual, your explanation to my question was well thought out, makes a lot of sense and is most likely accurate. Appreciated. Thanks.

Basically, No.

However, as Joe said, intercepting sears tend to feature in higher quality models and therein lies the increased value.

The geometry of the boxlock sear and bent means they are very unlikely to slip or break if made well. The intercepting safety on a quality model is largely belt and braces. IMO.

Are boxlocks and sidelocks distinguishable on this point - ie, as a consequence of their design, are sidelocks more prone to accidental discharge hence the almost universal inclusion of interceptor sears on sidelocks? Or was it more that interceptors sears are a quality indicator and therefore added routinely to sidelocks to bolster their image as a higher quality design compared to boxlocks?

Did the original A&D patent include interceptor sears? If not, was there a separate patent registered for that add-on?

As far as trousers go, I wouldn't mind loosing them. Not a lot at stake.
When gun safety is concerned I'd rather have belts and braces. And I'd pay for them.
JMHO.

JC

The limbs on a boxlock are far more robust than a sidelock. The sear and bent are at convenient angles and both are strong. There was no intercepting safety on the original A&D design. A number of later variants did include intercepting safeties. Good 'A&W' Webley models with screw grips often had them, for example. You see them incorporated in a lot of nice boxlocks by Army & Navy, William Evans and many others. Plenty of sidelocks don't have them but theoretically warrant them more.

Just adding to the discussion...Here's a very high quality Ford BLE..one side has the intercepting sear, the other side had it removed for some strange reason. You would never have been able to tell the gun was missing its interceptor unless you pulled the stock. My point ealier was on English made boxlocks, the price seem to elevate slightly when the gun is equipped with intercepting sears....on continental guns, they are common place and nobody seems to value them anymore than a standard boxlock. German boxlocks seem to be equipped with them in every grade, I once had a Sauer "Habicht" model that was bottom of the barrel for the Sauer line...it still had Krupp barrels and intercepting sears.

How do I know if my Wm Evans BLE has intercepting sears?
I have bushed firing pins, it's a classy gun.
Mike

Mike. The telltale sign is a small screw just posterior to the fences on the side of the receiver. I think you can see in photo above.

The mantra from influential "experts" at the time hammerless guns were being developed was that all of them should have interceptors or tumbler blocks -- esp any hammerless gun pretending to be a "best" gun. For the first quarter century of their existence, boxlocks were able to give sidelocks a run for their money in the "best" category, and it followed that many of the highest quality versions were fitted with intercepting sears, whether they needed them mechanically or not. Diggory probably has a better handle on it, but I think they start disappearing from British boxlocks somewhere around 1900 and are mostly gone by the First World War, at least in the British trade. The Germans are a little different.

Most German boxlocks don't have both the upper and lower sear screws which means intercepting safety. So, it is reserved for the upper grade guns.

It's vague in my mind (as more and more things are these days!), perhaps because we haven't discussed the subject for some time. However, I seem to recall a discussion in which it was pointed out that on German guns, that screw to which Buzz refers is not always a positive indicator of intercepting sears, but rather a different design feature. Don't recall what at the moment. Am I misremembering??

It is my understanding there has to be the upper and lower screw to be intercepting on the German guns. Sauerfan told me that one time.

Well, someone who has a lower grade Sauer or other type Continental BLE with this set up, pull the stock and take some pictures, lets see whats going inside these guns instead of playing the guessing game or "trust me" game.

Dustin

Courtesy of Sauerfan from another post:

My Model 280 (A&F import, 1936) has both the upper and lower screws, per the above and per Sauerfan's diagram. I've had it apart, and it definitely has intercepting sears.

But I still seem to recall some German guns--maybe they have the upper screw only?--that don't have intercepting sears. Overhanging hammers or something like that? My memory is pretty fuzzy on it, but something of that nature has stuck.

I had a 1931 Sauer model 180 with the upper screw; no lower. Sauerfan said it was not intercepting, but that it was better to have the single upper rather than the lower single screw.

The pic I posted of the Belgian boxlock with intercepting sear has a very tiny screw at the top and a pin at the bottom.

Lindner Daly atop with overhanging and lower intercepting scears. No, I didn't monkey up the screws.

Gustloff/BSW below with just overhanging.

If anyone wants any other view just let me know & I'll see if I can capture it.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

M-4 modified his search engine parameters and stumbled across this H. Scherping fitted with the cream of the crop Witten Excelsior tubes for a client/retailer George M. Wright of Danville, Ill. I'm sure a diagram is around here somewhere, but does anyone have a diagram or image of the centre mounted scear at their fingertips, which is seen more on a double rifle platform????



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The safety mechanism of the Simpson - BSM is in effect a secondary safety that blocks the upward movement of the sear tails. This also makes disassembly a bit of a puzzle. Mark II

Raimey,
Maybe that Scherping has a Blitz action, not an A&D.

The issue with the A&D traditional action is that the sear is mounted very close to the tumbler axis. This requires a very wide sear to reduce the working pressure and it also makes an intercepting sear a wish-able feature.
The overhanging sear is IMHO superior, because it is mounted much farther away from the axis, and therefore does not require a wide tumbler, which allows for a thinner cut in the bar, an easier sear filing, etc...
Best regards,
WC-

H. Scherping Hannover not O. Geyger:



For now, I'm not leaning toward Blitz action as the location of the screws in the bottom of the frame point to A&D. Frank Stievson may possess this one and he has info on the platform.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I've seen the Bonehill version on some of their Boxlock guns, it looked well thought out but its been said, that like a lot of 'extras' ( for want of a better word ) they're fine if they're working properly.

F.W. Kessler 250-3000


H. Scherping wearing Witten Excelsior tube steel



H. Scherping with Witten Excelsior tubes


At this juncture I'm thinking that F.W. Ke�ler was sourced for all of the above.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Just for comparison Baumgarten's 9.3x74R F.W. Ke�ler blitz action DR being a Selbstspanner Doppelb�chse System Tip-Top. I believe it was Ernst Funk who married a Ke�ler girl so there will be some cross sourcing there.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

This is an E. Schmidt & Habermann blitz drilling as seen on NE and on Chapmen's(Mike Hammer) site. I realize we are considering a double and not a triple, which has the large bar in the centre under the lower striker being just forward of the hammers. Doubles have separate dogs and typically they are held by a pin/screw on the side of the frame.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

F.W. Kessler 250-3000


H. Scherping wearing Witten Excelsior tube steel



H. Scherping with Witten Excelsior tubes



H. Scherping in 350 Rigby Mag.

Just wanted to lump some of those centre scear mounted doubles together.


H. Scherping w/ Coggy single trigger - not a similar action but similar frame.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse