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#267208 02/23/12 05:39 PM
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Can anyone please tell me who patented this latch…I need to settle a discussion/argument

Thanks

CJ



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CJ...Whatever it is..I call it damn pretty!
Does that knurled end piece turn?, or just decoration?
Then when you open the latch , you see that nice euchelon (sp?) underneath, sweet stuff....
What do you call it?
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I see them on alex henrys, lancaster and a few others but I don't know who patented it.

Last edited by Mike Harrell; 02/23/12 06:01 PM.
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It's a Rigby latch. At least that's what I've always known it as.

Lancaster guns and W. Richards of Liverpool both were big fans of it. I'm staring at three of my lancasters as I type this and they certainly have a prettier look than the Deeley plunger next to them in the rack.

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Escutcheon- from the French word for "shield" as in- coat-of-arms--


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Frank the end is just decorative, it just swivels to the right...btw I've always known it as a Henry latch but I've also heard people call it Rigby latch

CJ


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I don't know what it's called; but I have that latch on my 1883 vintage Fredrick T. Baker gun

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S. Matthews provisional patent 3573 of 1878. It seems to be an adaptation of the underlever fastener commonly attributed to Jones. Earlier, F. Baker Patent 1735 of 1878 had a very similar design, with the major difference only in the lever shape. I see these mostly on Rigby guns, but also on several others like Horsley and Cashmore. Here is an example from a Cashmore Nitro.


Last edited by Daryl Hallquist; 02/23/12 06:53 PM.
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That's just flat beautiful, Daryl. And CJ yours is also incredibly beautiful.


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Also often seen--much shorter lever--on Manufrance Robusts.

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The Manufrance Robusts have a latch that works like that. I don't know if it is the same action and patent.

Best,

Mike



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Quite often used on double rifles as it is very positive and secure


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Mike and Larry , doesn't the Manufrance latch, found on the Robust, Robust Ideal,and the Ideal , also move the forend forward as the latch is being turned ?

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Although I don't have the patent on hand(maybe in DGJ Vol. 9 Issue 4?), I've attributed it to Charles Harvey for his forend fastener British patent 1793 of 1866. I believe he was working at Wilkinson Sword or Rigby at the time. The Vienna contingent of Austrian gunmakers were quite fond of it.



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CJO,The generic trade name for this type of forend fastener is,"Grip fore-end."

Last edited by Roy Hebbes; 02/23/12 10:29 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Daryl Hallquist
Mike and Larry , doesn't the Manufrance latch, found on the Robust, Robust Ideal,and the Ideal , also move the forend forward as the latch is being turned ?


Yes it does. I guess it anchors on the loop and as the lever is turned it pushes the forend back into the action. The Rigby doesn't?

Best,

Mike



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I have one on a Nowoty (that's right, spelled with no "n")O/U combo in 16/8x57JR. Have just posted pictures under "help with proofmarks" in the German and Austrian section. Seems to have been proofed in Wiepert. Steve

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In my Bonehill Catalogue 1888, there are 5 fore-end fasteners listed that can be had on his shotguns, Deeley & Edge, Anson, The Bonehill Patent, the Key and the Grip Fore-end, I'm sure there are other variants. I have a Bonehill Patent, its basically a minature Jones underlever, the lever snaps down into the latch and must be first lifted and then turned. The one CJO is asking about is called the "Grip Fore-End" fastener. FWIW --- John Can,

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Thanks to everyone for the imput....thank you Roy and John! Grip Fore-End it is!, argument settled and nobody won.

All best

CJ


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Lefaucheux, in my book...

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Forend cheat sheet I use: Name(s), Patent #, and Date


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Hammerguy,
Thanks very impressive. I am going to copy onto my computer if that's ok?

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Raimey is correct, Diggory also mention it in his book "Vintage guns for the modern shot" P 138 Harvey 'grip catch' of 1866
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Any idea what this latch is know as - we see it on many of the perrins guns and has PUSH engraved on it and highlighted in gold?



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Originally Posted By: PM
Hammerguy,
Thanks very impressive. I am going to copy onto my computer if that's ok?


Of course it's ok. PM me an email address, and I'll send you a better quality version if you desire.

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Originally Posted By: Oldfarmer
Any idea what this latch is know as - we see it on many of the perrins guns and has PUSH engraved on it and highlighted in gold?
John


I've always heard/seen it called the Perrins Push, but I've never done much research on it, not being much of a "Perrins guy". Although, Dig has a very sweet little Perrins on his site that may change all that!

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It's a push latch...says it right on there.

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Oh yeah, now I remember. Clarence V. Push of Shrewsbury, England invented it 1897. He was a gunsmith. His partner, William Safe, invented the tang slide safety.



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This forend latch question has led me to something I've been wondering for a while - two things actually.

First, I realize this was a time of fast-paced experimentation and clearly a sort of darwinian logic prevailed, but who in their right mind would think the Hackett ‘snap-on’ forend from 1878 is a better mousetrap than the Anson (1872) or Deeley (1873)? I mean, this thing comes along, five or six years after two wonderful mechanical mechanisms were perfected, that you have to slap into place and pry off. I have Ford I dearly love, but it's only flaw is that lego-like forend.

Second, lets say it’s 1895 and time for me to get a new trio. I’m a traditionalist, like my hero Lord Ripon, so I stroll into Audley House and order up some damascus hammerguns. Can I also request the Grip forend latch? I believe it would have been a ‘non-standard’ piece of hardware for Purdey. Would that route the hardware thorough to a different craftsman, maybe even someone not onsite at Purdey? Or, would they have convinced me their ‘standard’ Anson was a better/only choice?

I realize neither have a definitive answer, but I’m interested in thoughts and wonder if anyone has found any documentation based on research they’ve done for their more unusual gun configurations.

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I understand that it was a cost implication with the grip lever being quite complex to make. It is in my opinion the best sort and easiest to operate with Anson push rods being capable of becoming quite stiff. The hacket snap seems to be found mainly on the lower end guns. There is also a push button type on some higher end Scott guns which I don't care for as it required pressure on the button while trying to lift the forend at the same time and both together makes it quite awkward. Working the grip lever lifts the forend away as it is pushed across. Lagopus.....

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E Thomas Jr- Chicago @1870 used the Harvey Latch in some of
his Hammer Shotguns He is the only American maker to do so-
that I have encountered.
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When the fore end lever on my Manufrance Ideal is rotated (as previously noted) it moves forward away from the barrels; rotating the lever a full 180 degrees locks the forend in place on the barrels, which can then be removed. Makes it harder for me to lose the fore end.



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Here's a Harvey latch , somewhat commonly found on Baker Trap guns, although most used a Hackett design.

Also, a Lefever clamshell latch, which is kind of pretty, if that's possible.




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If memory serves me correctly ,this is mentioned in British shotgun volume2 as being Wilkinsons patent . I dont hav the book to hand but will check when I do .

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Gunman, I think your memory is correct. Mr. Harvey worked for,or at least listed the same address as Wilkinson. So maybe a tie in here. Oddly , I looked at the Harvey 1866 pat no. 1793 and could find no mention of a forend fastener of any type. Thus , I mentioned the Mathews patent [provisional] which seemed to include the forend topic.

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CJO,
David Baker Covers Fore end fastener Patents in his epic book The British Shotgun;These are to be found in Volume 1 pages 119,204&205;and in Volume 2, pages 138-145.All of the patents seen in the posts are covered.
By comparison, W.W. Greener in the 9th edition of his book,The Gun," devotes less than half a page to fore end fasteners he dose however illustrate and name the Grip Fore-end."


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Daryl, that is a little jewel on that Lefever.




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It seems that everyone is dancing around the origin so no one has a copy of the 1866 Harvey British patent; it doesn't exist; or the patent is vaguely covered depending on interpretation? Or is the term Grip Fore-end a moniker with multiple sources and like the Roux Underlever we are on a rabbit chase?

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Raimey, here's a copy of the 1866 Harvey Patent , in a synopsis form. I could find no mention of a forend fastener, but there was a cam for closing. What do you think? Note that the diagram on the second page is for another different patent.




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To quote Donald Dallas in his book "The Brirish Sporting Gun and Rifle"*,"Out of all the patents[1870's and 1880's]three rose to prominence, two of them still being used to a large extent today. The first of these, an inert lever, the 'grip catch', was very common in the 1870's, but it fell into disuse after this decade, when the more convenient snap fore-end took over. The grip catch was patented by Charles Harvey, an employee with Wilkinson & Son of 27 Pall Mall, London in patent no.1793 of 7 July 1866. A Lefaucheux type forward facing lever turned a screw grip turret in the for-end to engage with a bite on the barrel loop very similar to Henry Jones 1859 underlever. It was handsome, unobtrusive and secure and was used by many makers notably Horsly of York and Rigby of London to the extent it is often termed the 'Rigby lever fore-end'."

As a note I have a pair of 1894 custom made Boss & Co. sxs's
with 'grip catches'. plus 3 H&H rifles that use them for the durability.

*
"The British Sporting Gun and Rifle", Donald Dallas, Quiller Publishing Press. London 2008.


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"Grip-Forend" aka "Rigby latch" (ultra generic term that most all are familiar with).



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Well it does look like that patent #1793 of 1866 is not for a fore-end latch and that D.Dallas used Baker and Crud.'s book as his source rather than the patent book.
So who patented the "Grip fore-end"?
And please don't refer to the "Shotgun" vol.1

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Justin, there is a possibility that the "abridging" of the patent of 1866, No 1793 that I posted , was responsible for no forend latch being mentioned. Maybe not, though. Mike Petrov had some thoughts a few months ago that he tries to verify everything he reads or hears. That might be a good thing in this case. It is "easy" to copy something someone else has written, sort of trying to make it fact. You mention the possibility of Dallas using the Crudgington and Baker material on this subject . I have seen a couple of times when Crudgington and Baker had errors, confusing one man with another with a similar name. I do not disparage their EPIC work,it is the best there is, but those things can happen, and if copied and repeated they become hard to correct. Keep digging.

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Daryl summed it up.
Nothing tells the tale like patents.
But Rookhawk was on the money as far as the
common name. It is known as a Rigby latch.

Steve

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Apparently Mr. Rigby thought that he had a patent on this latch....





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Terry, good one as always. What is the Rigby patent no. ?

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Hi Daryl, there doesn't appear to be a patent no. for the forend latch,only for the Bissel rising bite.


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I have just received a copy of the full patent application for #1793 of 1866 in charles Harvey's name and there is no mention of a forend latch.
What is amusing is in the illustration of his patent the foreend of the gun is included and it is that grip.
Funny but not relevant.
So,what is that grip called and who patented it?

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Like many Brits note, it was still referred to as the screw grip in 1906:




http://www.scribd.com/doc/40464507/Modern-Sporting-Gunnery-1906-From-www-jgokey-com

from Modern Sporting Gunnery from 1906 by Henry Sharp

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Here's an excerpt from a Holt auction catalog. To me it appears the grip forend patent info discussed above was not Harvey's or Rigby's . Harvey's patent does not mention a forend latch, but is for retracting firing pins pat. [1793 of 1866] No Rigby patent for the latch has been found. So what is the Patent number for the "Wilkinsons Patented Lever Forend"?

Sale 1011 Lot 1075

A RARE HARVEY 1866 PATENT 12-BORE ROTARY-UNDERLEVER HAMMERGUN BY WILKINSON & SON, serial no. 6460, No.2, 30in. black powder only damascus barrels (right barrel with dents and wall thickness below recommended minimum), rib engraved 'WILKINSON & SON. GUN MAKERS TO HER MAJESTY, PALL MALL. LONDON.' and with scrollwork at the breech ends, action incorporating Charles Harvey patent retractable strikers, patent no. 1793 of 7th July 1866, use number 148, Jones patent rotary-underlever, rebounding sidelocks with carved hammers, gold-inlaid indicator lines, best border and bold scroll engraving, the standing breech engraved 'WILKINSON'S No. 148 PATENT. 1866.', 14 1/4in. well-figured stock, cracked through and repaired at hand, including chequered steel buttplate, 'Wilkinson's patent Lever Fore End', weight 7lb. 4oz. The makers records show the gun was sold in 1870
Estimate £500-700

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Nice find Mr. Hallquist as the concern was correct as was the date but different patent number. But it appears that 400 Nitro Express had already informed us on the history of the grip catch:

"The same rotary locking method was then patented by Wilkinson Sword Co. (James Wilkinson) for fastening fore-ends in drop-down barrel action guns. The 1866 screw grip fore-end fastener patent (the familiar side-swinging fore-end lever) was by a Wilkinson workman, which made it Wilkinson's property. Wilkinson Sword Co apparently sold the patent to Rigby before it expired."

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=149435&page=1

I wonder if that mechanic was Charles Harvey?

Are 400 Nitro Express and Kerryman still with us?

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Raimey, do you have that Patent number for the 1866 screw grip forend fastener by Wilkinson ? I cannot find it.

Likewise, a Wilkinson gun is marked "Wilkinson, No. 27 , Patent, 1866. I cannot find that one in the volumes of Abridged British gun patents. This gun does have the lever forend.

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I thought you had it???? When can one procure the British book of novel ideas from the get-go? Me thinks we are very close to the truth if someone can locate the purchase of the patent rights by Rigby.

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Raimey, maybe so about the Rigby purchase, but we don't seem to be able to locate the Patent rights by Wilkinson or any other, from whom Rigby might have purchased. I see no concrete info on the original patent number or any subsequent sales.

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Originally Posted By: Daryl Hallquist

Likewise, a Wilkinson gun is marked "Wilkinson, No. 27 , Patent, 1866. I cannot find that one in the volumes of Abridged British gun patents. This gun does have the lever forend.


Well then, it appears we are still in patent attribute fantasy land but I would assume the "No. 27"( of Pall Mall) a component of the address being the same as Charles Harvey. I have found a document of the 1886 patent listing:
http://books.google.com/books?id=BWsyAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA95&dq=william+wilkinson+%26+son+british+patent+of+1866&hl=en&sa=X&ei=17qOT6aNOYWa8gTxg-2gDg&sqi=2&ved=0CEgQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=william%20wilkinson%20%26%20son%20british%20patent%20of%201866&f=false

So getting back to 1st principles, Sometime prior to 1853 accomplished swordsman John Latham was taken into the Wilkinson & Son fold as he married one of the daughters of Henry Wilkinson, son of James Wilkinson who was the son-in-law of Henry Nock. In December of 1853 a document was penned detailing an agreement for the transfer of the company to John Latham. Henry Wilkinson's retirement may have been in 1858 followed by his demise in 1861 due to cancer. John Latham looks to have been an excellent manager and under his direction the thrust seems to have been along the lines of edged weapons. Also the 1860s look to have some drama to the agreement and subsequent takeover which seems to veil any improvements in breech loaders.

Note too that John Rigby moves to London in 1865/1866. Anyone hazard a guess of the date of the 1st Rigby with the grip catch?
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In reviewing every bodies posts I think the answer is in here somewhere. If as Justin states this "grip fore-end latch" is illustrated in the patent submission C Harvey/Wilkinson Sword
pat #1793 of 1866 it establishes Prior Art on the design and would make any future attempt to patent it in it's own right strongly contestable. Additionally patent applications were quite expensive to submit, it was then, as now common practice to make the application as extensive as possible in effect covering all possibilities. If this latch arrangement were Mr Harvey's original Work/Intellectual property it would be covered by this patent even though not specifically called out or the principal object of the patent. Subsequent interest and adoption by the trade may have resulted in payments being made and rights purchased to avoid litigation. Given that it was clearly shown in Harvey's #1793/1866 no later patent would be considered valid under US Patent Law


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Hugh, that's an interesting take, but almost all gun patent improvements show the improvement on a gun for illustration. Many times the gun is recognizable, although the patent drawing just illustrates how the improvement relates to a gun. Patent #1793 of 1866 shows a gun with a lever forend latch, a forend , barrels , hinge pin,"Jones" underlever, etc. But, the text of the patent makes no mention of any forend latch at all. The only thing the patent text deals with is the retracting firing pins.

Last edited by Daryl Hallquist; 04/19/12 02:45 PM.
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In current patent law, only the content of the claims is protected. Everything else (figures, text body) that is described is unprotected and can be used by anybody. However, nobody else can claim those ideas as inventions because they are now "prior art".
Today, companies & individuals publish papers to describe ideas that they don't want/need to protect, but don't want anybody else to claim either.
Of course I have no idea what the 19th century British patent law was, but I would suspect it was the same.

Best regards,
WC-

Last edited by WildCattle; 04/20/12 10:32 AM.
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Some images of the drawing of Charles Harvey British patent #1793 of 1866 thanks to the efforts of Mr. Hallquist.





Is a component of the Grip Catch at the knuckle under the protection of Charles Harvey's design?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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Actually, Raimey, the information and images were supplied gratis thanks to the kindness of Veena Mapara-Popescu, Press Officer at the British Patent Office.

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Was looking for something else of course, but for the same time period there were fellas T., J., & C. Harvey barrel borers at Powell's Mill, Aston Road. That would be Thomas, James & Charles Harvey. So was there more than one Charles Harvey or was Charles Harvey inventor of the forend underlever also a barrel borer?


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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