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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 2
Boxlock
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Boxlock

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Hello,

I've been trying to find out something about this double barrel left to me by my Grandfather. It's a beautiful old gun with a double hinge design. I would love to get an estimate on the age and the value. Thank you in advance for your help.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/77088979@N ... 408862155/

If you have anymore questions please feel free to ask.

Joined: Feb 2012
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Boxlock
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Boxlock

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Bad link, try this one.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/77088979@N07/sets/72157629408862155/

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Sidelock
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There's a Engelbert Clever Nachfolger(Successor) thread here: http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=260927&page=1 . The successor(I'd guess a son-in-law or it could be someone that purchased the firm) sourced the Belgian craftsmen of Liege for this Herold example, which is Franz Jaeger's patent. He was a firearms merchant and peddled some interesting and unique sporting arms. Maybe PeteM can narrow the date with the diameters but I'd guess after 1910 and before 1922. It has the Record trademark on the butt which goes to some Franz Jaeger-Scholberg collaboration. Note the S&D(Scholbert & Delheid(?)) monogram/trademark on the hinge pin.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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Sidelock
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A couple of adverts that I stumbled across for you Engelbert Clever Köln am Rhein fans:


1891 Advert



1892 Advert


1893 Advert


1893 Advert


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Joined: May 2009
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Sidelock
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Sidelock

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I read that the successors were taken over by Eduard Kettner in 1912 but I've seen an ad with the Clever name that was supposedly from 1914. I hope that clears things up. Axel says that F. Jaeger was not particularly diligent in defending the "Rekord" patent and it was often copied. Maybe he wasn't diligent in defending his trade mark either.
Fred

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Sidelock
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Friar Fred of Utah, I had suspected that Eduard Kettner just might had absorbed Engelbert Clever as period publications had adverts on each possibly on the same page. Also I don't recall there being a firearms merchant's name as being the successor, just the successor term.

I haven't really looked but are their addresses similar?





Eduard Kettner advert from 1892.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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Sidelock
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Sidelock

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From what I can gather, the Nachfolger was a gent named Hommelsheim, a master gun maker, who, on New Year's Day of 1913 gave the business over to Kettner but operated it afterwards as a branch of Ed. Kettner. The addresses I have are not the same. If my German were better, I could tell you more.
Fred

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Sidelock
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Friar Fred, since you seem to be the fount of information tonight, have you seen any retailed examples by the following firearms merchants:


Albert Richter Gewehrfabrik of Cottbus
Drilling Patent holder 29404 of 1884



H. Götz Berlin
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post255970


C. Krümmel established 1853


Nicolaus Knoll & Company Berlin


Oscar Winter Hannover

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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Sidelock
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Sidelock

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The fount is a bit dry in this regard. Sorry.

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Sidelock
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Originally Posted By: Fred the Saxon
I read that the successors were taken over by Eduard Kettner in 1912 but I've seen an ad with the Clever name that was supposedly from 1914. I hope that clears things up. Axel says that F. Jaeger was not particularly diligent in defending the "Rekord" patent and it was often copied. Maybe he wasn't diligent in defending his trade mark either.
Fred



Franz Jäger's adverts give that his was a 10 point lockup and he lists his sales outlets in this 1907/1908 advert and Engelbert Clever is listed as having a successor.





But a a similar period article on the Verschluß der Rekordgewehr gives that it has a 20(friction surfaces) point lockup and is manufactured in Liege by Scholberg & Delheid and adverts for it thru Thieme & Schlegelmilch and those of Franz Jäger are either found on adjacent pages or possibly on the same page.



With Engelbert Clever's successor being a sales outlet for Franz Jäger and having Belgian proofs I wonder if Franz Jäger didn't source the work to Liege or have some business relationship with Scholberg & Delheid.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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