doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Engelbert Clever Nachf Coln 16ga. Double Barrel

First, "Record" was not a trademark of Franz Jaeger, but of Paul Scholberg, Liege. The relations between F.Jaeger and Paul Scholberg are rather entangled. The key man here seems to be a Carl Bittiner.The Jaeger-Simson action, patented by Jaeger 1904, DRP 176578, was not only made by Franz Jaeger himself and , under Jaeger licence, by Simson, but the same action was also made and exported by Paul Scholberg, Rue Morinval 24, Liege, Belgium, without ever being sued or objected by Franz Jaeger. No licence arrangement is known. This is what I found out from various sources: When Franz Jaeger worked in the USA from 1898 - 1902, his business adress was "The Gun Improvement Company, Bittiner & Jaeger, Broadway 234-235, New York". The Bittiner of B&J was Carl Bittiner who settled in Liege after their American adventure. In 1907 Bittiner's Liege adress is also listed at rue Morinval 24, same as Paul Scholberg! In 1907 Bittiner even patented an improvement of this action, DRP 201505, the rear of the barrel lumps going into recesses in the action bar. So the entire idea of the "Simson-Jaeger" action may have been a "joint venture" of Franz Jaeger and Carl Bittiner, with an agreement that both patent it in germany and Belgium respectively. In 1910 Jaeger again patented a similar arrangement with sidplates to the same effect, DRP 229531. So who really invented what of the Jaeger-Simson-Bittiner-Scholberg action remains a mystery, probably unsolvable now. Because of this hodgepodge of patents Franz J�ger did not bother to defend his own at the time of WW1. At least the 1910 Jaeger patent expired in 1930, so from then on it was in the public domain. Several Zella-Mehlis makers made guns for the trade, copiing this action.

Interesting tid-bit of info there Axel. I didn't say Rekord was a Franz J�ger trademark nor did I intend to infer it. Considering the examples we have, I don't think Franz J�ger had to worry about the patent infringement as he had the best of both worlds and was laughing all the way to the bank. He could get his a Belgian version of his Herold example at a cheaper price and then forward it on to one of his satellite sales outlet. I do wonder how the Herold, Simson - J�ger, Rekord and those without a name compare.






doubletrouble can you tell us what initials are encircled beside the numbers?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

And they may have all copied Gustav Bittner of Weipert patented design of circa 1893:




Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Seems that Clever has his model numbers on the left-hand-side but it will take some effort to wade thru the Old German font.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I don't think the numbers to be model designations. As the descriptions seem to be of individual guns Clever had in stock at that time, they are more likely Clever's stock numbers.
As you mentioned Gustav Bittner's design with the locking bites in the dual lumps (other than the Jaeger/Bittiner/Scholberg designs), don't forget to mention the older British designs similar to Bittner's: The George Jeffries of Norwich patent #3442 of 1874 and the Smith,Townsend & Williams #2778 of 1858. Both feature double underlumps with the bites in the lumps.

Thanks Axel for the correction and noting the contribution from the fellas on the little British Isles. I'm going to see if I can locate Gustav Bittner of Weipert's patent.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Yup, those are Clever's stock numbers, not a model number. A lot of damascus barrels and he identifies the types of damascus.

Interesting advertisement, not unlike stuff we see today from any number of gunshops.

Like H. Scherping and other weapons handlers, Engelbert Clever had a cult like following of his wares and they described him as a hunting haberdasher as well as a top shot(2nd tier?) - Jagdutensilien H�ndler und Meistersch�tze(zweiter) . He holds some sort of patent #3965 from December 28th, 1891 while located at Com�dienstra�e 3. And it appears by the adverts that by at least 1907/1908 he had passed the concern on to a successor. He too, or his clients, seemed to cotton to the eccentric breech of that of Collath.




Like to see the stamps on this one.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=290373142


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Possibly I need to review the patent associated with the trademark Herold as I thought it was connected to the exterior lugs/lumps:


L. Ernst Evertz of Duren retailed sporting arm.






Interesting tube maker's stamp or Birmingham proof Crown over BV?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=290357285

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

While this one retailed by Emil Schwarte Hamborn am Rhein has the Herold and registered trademark stamp:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=289463234




Herold and registered trademark stamp




With tube steel sourced from Heinrich Ehrhardt.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse