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keith #265273 02/12/12 02:17 AM
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Originally Posted By: keith
King, on page 20 of this thread, you make the point that partisan politics has no place in this particular forum. Then you do exactly what you say should not be done. Canvasback steered the discussion back to twisted interpretations of a clear Second Amendment, and you steered the discussion to Guantanimo, the Patriot Act, and a Reagan parallel government for Iran and Contras. You want us to follow the rules to the letter, but it appears you (and several others)can march to a different drummer.

How do you expect Dave Weber to believe that non-doublegun topics are offensive to you if you (and several others) persist in returning to such topics yourself? Actions speak louder than words.


Keith, Jim, Gnomon et al, I may be naive but I firmly believe we can all debate these issues, in as great a detail as any may wish, without getting into partisan politics. I don't have to name any person or party affiliation to discuss, prove or disprove any idea that someone else has put forth (LOL, unless it is Chris Matthews talking about Obama).

I suspect that many on here would be more agreeable to this type of discussion if it was centered on ideas rather than party affiliation or personalities.

I know that each side can be backed into a corner about both beliefs and responsibility on any subject. I know here in Canada we need to get away from the simple labels, the name calling, the completely partisan outlook.

I also know it's hard to do. But it's valuable to get the debate back onto the idea, not the person or party. JMHO


The world cries out for such: he is needed & needed badly- the man who can carry a message to Garcia
King Brown #265275 02/12/12 04:06 AM
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Originally Posted By: King Brown
There's not a soul here who's for gun control or who doesn't recognize the need of vigilance to protect our interests. Inviolable or unalienable constitutional rights on paper bear no resemblance to practice here or there. Jim recognizes it above as we all do. Whatever Dave does with this dissolving phantasmagoria, my hope is that there's a cleanup of all the political partisanship and slogans, jingoism, imputing of motives and citizenship, and it's packed it off to another place on the board. I'm here to learn about doubles. I don't give a tinker's dam about someone's father or politician unless it relates to gun provenance or some activity in the shooting sports.


I agree completely canvasback. But when you read King's quote above, and then read the one you just reproduced or look at his own words on pg. 20, you get the full taste and texture of the hypocrisy that is running rampant here. We have guys... not just King, who express their total disdain for partisan politics in this forum. They make sanctimonious pitches to banish all such discussion here. Then they do exactly what they preach must never be done. Who do they think they are fooling? What are their real motives? In order to have a frank and honest debate, we must deal with frank and honest people. When one side states the ground-rules and then plays by a different set of standards, it becomes easy for the game to erupt into a brawl. That's what's causing most of the problems here. When and if we ever have a Republican or third party President who is a threat to our gun rights, I will be just as hard on him as I am on the current guy. It is sad that anti- gunners have so co-opted the Democrat Party and have a stranglehold on so many Democrat politicians. That might change if more Democrat gun-owners told them that was an unacceptable position, and had the convictions to prove it with their vote. My voter registration card reads "No Party Affiliation" for a reason. That little notation excludes me from voting in primary elections in my state. It is the price I have to pay for having no blind allegiance to any Party.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

James M #265294 02/12/12 10:24 AM
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Keith- you wrote (in part only): "Unemployment increased dramatically after Obama took office. This was after his promise that the Stimulus Bill would keep unemployment below 8%. I am so glad you provided that link to Trading Economics.com.... it proves my point exactly. The chart which pops up looks very good for the one month period shown. But click on the date selection above the chart and change the 2010 to 2000, the year George Bush 46 took office. Man, your boy Obama doesn't look so good now, does he? Why would you give us a link to historical data that shows your boy has presided over the longest and deepest recession since the Depression? "

If you look at the chart you will see a huge initial rise in unemployment as the whole economy tanked. It coincided with Obama's election. Do you seriously mean to argue that the single event of his election triggered the increase? Or perhaps that it took a while to start getting it under control?

Obama has presided over the longest and severest recession since the Great Depression - that doesn't mean he caused it - and has done so quite competently.

You ask why I show these data? Because they are pretty good and aren't doctored (at least I don't think they are) and they show the whole story - not just snapshots. We might as well try to understand good data not some right or left-wing balderdash.

Here's another one: http://money.cnn.com/2011/09/21/news/economy/middle_class_income/index.htm

The middle wage-earners basically just "ran out of money and credit" by the end of the first decade of this century. Major contributor to the collapse and that didn't happen the moment Obama took office - that was the result of at least a decade of Republican policy. They still are trying to block tax-relief for the W-2 crowd!

James M #265295 02/12/12 10:27 AM
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canvasback wrote (in part): "Keith, Jim, Gnomon et al, I may be naive but I firmly believe we can all debate these issues, in as great a detail as any may wish, without getting into partisan politics. I don't have to name any person or party affiliation to discuss, prove or disprove any idea that someone else has put forth (LOL, unless it is Chris Matthews talking about Obama)"

canvas- didn't know you got Matthews in Canada. Do you get Joe Scarborough? His "Morning Joe" show (6-9AM) is fascinating. He's a conservative, former Florida Congressman, yet he has a wide range of guests. Much less shrill than Matthews and a much wider range of ideas presented ad discussed.

James M #265302 02/12/12 11:37 AM
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Gnomon, We get most of what you have but they make getting Fox news quite difficult. CNN is almost part of a standard assortment and same for MSNBC. Have watched Scarborough on occasion but I'm not a big fan of watching TV in the morning. Don't want to get stuck on the couch all day! LOL

Love the op/ed from all viewpoints that has developed on TV but I wish all the networks could do a better job of separating op/ed from news reporting. Every Tom (Brokaw), Dick (?) and Harry (Reasoner) reporter wants to tell us his opinion or "frame" the discussion, rather than tell us the news. Murrow should be turning in his grave.


The world cries out for such: he is needed & needed badly- the man who can carry a message to Garcia
James M #265309 02/12/12 12:07 PM
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canvas- that's interesting - we don't get any Canadian stuff (unless I don't know where to look!)

I agree that there is too much admixture of opinion, ideology and news.

James M #265321 02/12/12 12:51 PM
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Friends, what is partisan to some may not be to others. I contributed an opinion of constitutional rights and gave examples where infringements may be in national interests. Constitutions aren't sacrosanct. No matter how beautifully written or emblazoned in words of gold, they cannot and have not been guarantors of peace, order and good government. Citizens usually express their wills through Congress and Parliaments, and the examples I gave did not raise a gnat's eyelash of debate in federal and lower legislatures.

My posts were intended to bring another perspective to the sanctity of constitutions and amendments where they apply to gun control. I was interested in a member's reference to the 2nd's value against tyrannical governments. We've seen the limits of military power in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan and the power of people who wouldn't take it any more in Arab Spring. We may not like the outcomes but we've learned at horrific cost that changing regimes and cultures are different things.

Obviously I put my faith in people before constitutions. I've said here several times that the United States always gets it right over time. While it may seem partisan to some members, it is fact that our neighbour and closest friend and the one I prefer for its magnanimity and generosity has changed in a few years from pariah in foreign affairs to having the deserved respect of the world. Call it partisan, call it what you will, look out the window---it's true as Elsies being good guns.





Last edited by King Brown; 02/12/12 12:56 PM.
James M #265338 02/12/12 02:03 PM
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Unfortunately partisan politics is at the core of the "gun" issue. Some of you may honestly think that highly restrictive firearms legislation with the eventual goal of the elimination of the 2nd Amendment would be impossible. I think this article in the Washington Times with Wayne Lapierre(Executive Vise President) as th keynote speaker very accurately and chillingly sums up what we'll be faced with should Obama managed to get re-elected. That is way many of us firmly believe it is imperative that this issue is kept at the forefront as we move into the 2012 elections.
Should he do so it's almost a given he'll get at least one more Supreme Court appointment and that would be the end of the 2nd Amendment. I can only imagine what would happen should this occur.
Jim


http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/insi...-guns-2nd-term/


The 2nd Amendment IS an unalienable right.
James M #265343 02/12/12 03:02 PM
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Gnomon,

Move your questions about the Great Depression of 2008 to Misfires, and I will debate you. Or you can study what is already here including the damning data Dave K provided. I have decided that we were probably being baited into political discussions which had nothing to do with guns or the Second Amendment. I further decided to self-police and pull away from those discussions, not because I can't defend my positions, but because so many who have raised those non-gun issues are the very souls who piously proclaim that is why they do not want Gun Control topics in the DoubleGun BBS.

Did you perhaps read my post from early this morning at 2:06 AM? This cuts to the heart of why I disagree with you and your position on gun control. There is no way you can proclaim to be a strong supporter of the Second Amendment and continue to also support politicians who would violate their oath of office and attempt to severely restrict or abolish it. And you do nothing to try to change their position so that you can continue to vote for them because you agree with their other core principals. I am not painting an unfair picture of you. I am reaching my conclusion because that is what you have told us about yourself and your laissez faire attitudes toward gun rights.

This could all go on for days or weeks or months, but it has been very apparent for quite some time that there are a number of members here who have the "Do as I say, not as I do," attitude. I'm sure our host, Dave Weber, has noticed by now that many who proclaimed the pretend fear that these topics would devolve into petty bickering unrelated to any type of gun are the very ones who took us down those side roads. Hypocrisy is such a strong word, but what else could one call such behavior?

Stick to why it is wrong or bad to discuss legislative or political topics that may ultimately affect our right to own any guns, or debate me elsewhere via Misfires or PM's. I took the bait early on, but I've spit out the hook. Those who have wailed, gnashed their teeth, and beat their breasts in mock anguish can try to lure me in again. They tried to fool us, but worse, they tried to fool Dave.


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

James M #265348 02/12/12 03:14 PM
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I've had more than my share here, Jim. You've heard me say ownership and hunting will be gone as we know it, not in my lifetime but within 25 years the way things are going. My children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren look at me as batty for doing with guns what I do. The hollowing out of our countries of rural to the cities is crimping the old verities of resourcefulness, freedom and independence. It's driving the unwarranted way growing majorities think of safety with fear of everything. The 2nd Amendment will remain despite how its meaning is used. What's important to me is that the US was born out of revolt against misguided authority. Nothing I've seen since of your country believing in its exceptionalism, a light on the hill, its patriotism and jingoism easily the most pervasive throughout the world, makes me think it would defer to misguided authority again. I believe in the people, not wordsmiths.

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