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King:
PLEASE! Don't stoop to the level of playing the race card. We expect more of you than trying to perpetually blame some of our citizens ills on the Whites. The minorities you reference above had had at the very least equal rights and in many cases have received special treatment for a half century now. The reason many are still in poverty certainly has nothing to do with rights.
But I digress:
This is a gun forum and it should be appropriate to discuss ANYTHING generally related to guns in the mainstream of the forum. Gun legislation has the potential to affect ALL of us,including shotgun owners, and going back to the 1934 Gun Act which had a direct impact on shotgun holders. Such formerly useful tools like the H&R Handigun were turned into Gangster weapons by this Act.
The also outlawed Ithaca Auto-Burgler which would IMO probably be as effective a bedside home protection weapon as anything imaginable if it hadn't been essentially outlawed by this legislation.
Jim

Keith, the issue isn't what Bush inherited from Clinton, not even what Obama inherited from Bush. It's what has happened since 2008. The link I provided makes that very clear.

Also, I am going to ignore your ad hominem comments since that kind of stuff is non-productive, hence will not respond in kind. You obviously are not a 2-yr-old and draw your own conclusions from the data. However one needs to understand the basis for the data before pronouncing on it.

The stock market is a pretty good indicator and that, despite volatility, is doing just fine. Working people's income has actually declined in the past 12 or so years and that is a contributor to the great recession. Whether or not that ever gets reversed is problematic but those are the kinds of issues that don't appear in graphs or tables. They are, however, very real and government policies affect them enormously.

As far as shotguns - personally I think that Obama has never seen much less fired one. He probably doesn't like them. HOWEVER, he's a pol and represents people who like and use them as well as the obverse. He has not damaged our gun rights. And he's smart enough not to.

It's vino time in my house- see you tomorrow!

King, please re-read what I said earlier. I never said anything about members painting YOU in an unfair light. And I never even remotely considered quoting your views "out of context", but rather I was saying I wanted to be able to quote your views verbatim, lest I be accused of twisting your thoughts or words. You have told us many times that you are/were a professional wordsmith. You are not comprehending what you read, and you are not thinking about what you write. I know you can do better.

I will simply agree with Jim about your lame attempt at playing the race card. Our NRA has worked diligently to protect the Second Amendment rights of law abiding minorities, especially those who are trapped in the crime ridden product of the Great Society and denied the right to self protection by anti-gun politicians. 'Course, we all know I am nothing but Jim's Parrot. Squaawk! Hey Jim, where's my damn cracker? How about soaking it in bourbon... I'm going to need it.

Gnomon, I would also ask you to go back and re-read what I said, but you would never comprehend it. So don't even bother. The link you provided proves my point, not yours. You shot yourself in the foot and are now standing in a puddle of blood proclaiming victory. That is not an ad hominum attack by me on you. You are doing it to yourself. Please don't stop. You are proving my point.

Jim, I don't know where you see a race card. I said in one post that I didn't know why people made so much of constitutional rights which are trampeled every day, and in following post provided examples of two open wounds because our countries haven't empowered the words. That's not racist. That's our history. Sensitivity is another issue.

Quote from King Brown:

" It's worth considering in any discussion of the sanctity of constitutional rights of what our white majorities did to minorities, blacks there and indigenous peoples here, which continue to this day"

This is playing the race card in my book.
Jim

Such interesting ideas keep surfacing in this thread.

King, could it be that people make much of their constitutional rights precisely because so many politicians, the judiciary and elements of law enforcement are constantly trying to disallow or to ignore those constitutionally enshrined rights, to suit their short term purposes or to engage in social engineering that doesn't yet have the support of the majority.

The never ending analysis of the second amendment is fascinating to me, because while it's words are clear and the benefit, as envisioned by the authors, is clear, it is constantly picked apart by those who would prefer that only the authorities have access to firearms.

Fair enough, Jim. In your book it may be. In Canada---and I suspect in much of the US---it's standard fare in the educational system; in histories as straight narrative of what happened, in social studies of how rhetoric often belies reality i.e there's no path forward without assessments of reality right from scratch. If we blind ourselves to common frailties we'll never get there.

canvasback, yes, we're incensed by infringements and disheartened by Supreme Court arbitration often not providing remedial action. Courts finding for Constitution or Charter rights doesn't mean the executive branch will obey. Guantanamo, Patriot Act and Reagan running a parallel government for Contras and Iran come to mind. Selfish? Governments' job is to protect national interests. Constitutional? The US declared it would invade pre-emptively and change the social and economic systems of countries it felt were inimical to its national interests. We make too much of constitutions as a sacred trust. Believing in the words doesn't make them so.

King, on page 20 of this thread, you make the point that partisan politics has no place in this particular forum. Then you do exactly what you say should not be done. Canvasback steered the discussion back to twisted interpretations of a clear Second Amendment, and you steered the discussion to Guantanimo, the Patriot Act, and a Reagan parallel government for Iran and Contras. You want us to follow the rules to the letter, but it appears you (and several others)can march to a different drummer.

How do you expect Dave Weber to believe that non-doublegun topics are offensive to you if you (and several others) persist in returning to such topics yourself? Actions speak louder than words.

King, you are correct Sir, as the great Ed McMahon used to tell Johnny. We do get incensed by those infringements!

Personally I liked it better when we didn't have one, at least a real one anyway. I liked it better when we were an act of the British Parliament and we based our laws and court decisions on the accumulated wisdom of countless generations, both here and back in Great Britain, in accordance with the country we were, not a future country envisioned by some small group with outsized influence.

The Government of Canada has given me no rights whatsoever. The Canadian Charter of Rights is an illusion if it is imagined that is how we got rights.

I have a right to employment? To healthcare? To being free from discrimination? It is to laugh, this foolishness. No wonder our country's' governments are so screwed up. They can't recognize or admit to truth when it sits squarely before them, regardless of political affiliation.

Government, any government, can't give rights to us. It is only within government's power to take away rights that are intrinsic to being alive, to being human, in the name of creating a more humane and harmonious society, or to recognize those natural rights we are all born with.

So we voluntarily give up certain rights. And perhaps, having made that voluntary sacrifice for the greater good, that is why we get so incensed when the few rights we have retained and kept for ourselves are so often and egregiously trampled on by so many different instruments of the state.

But lets be clear...governments give nothing.