doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Please help ID this shotgun

Although proof of civilian arms was voluntary (but official, with a proofhouse in St. Etienne and later one in Paris) from 1895-1960, I have never seen a French shotgun that did not have proofmarks. Anyone else??

Well, you've seen and I've seen Sauer doubles with proof dates of 11/44 and 12/44, so who's to say Krupp didn't make the barrels? I remain bewildered by the fact that the Germans, in the middle of an existential war on three fronts and governed by a strict dictatorship, continued to allow the manufacture civilian sporting guns right up until the enemy was coming over the hill next to the gun factory. I mean, how many civilian sporting guns did (insert name of American gunmaker) make in 1943 or '44? Few, if any.

I'd speculate the barrels were made some time (maybe a year or two) before the gun got to the Italian proof house.

Peter has said it before and prior to WWI the Germans had a large footprint in Liege and tubes were being churned out to supply the world. It appears that proofhouse facilities did not close as there are sporting weapons with 1945, 1946, etc. I can't recall a 1947 stamped sporting arm. Also who applied the dates, I cannot say.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Given you've seen '45 and '46 but no '47 Liege guns, would it not be fair to deduce that in '45 and '46 the manufacturers were working off stockpiled barrels produced some time earlier and only put together and submitted for proof in those later years, and that by '47 those stockpiled barrels had been used up? And, along those lines, would it not also be fair to similarly deduce that this particular Italian gun was similar, in that the barrels were made earlier and only finished up and submitted for proof in '44?

I can't see where it was not possible and even probable that the German made barrels were supplied to Italy & others well before any of the WW2 activities started and rather think that the barrels in question were just that .. supplied at an earlier date and the "1944" ONLY reflects the time that the gun was proved.

I too think there were stockpiles and the sporting arm production continued at a snail's pace. Also I was referring generally to the proofhouses of Liege & Suhl and possibly a few others. As usual my mind fails me as I didn't have it written on the back my hand but after a search I found some 1947 dated sporting arms. Most during this period that I have seen were Sauer and were in the possession of Russians. Now I'm equating Sauer's sourcing of tubes to Liege.


Sauer 354460 December 1946



May 1947


September 1947


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I've looked thru my lifted Simson images and have also found some from 1946 & 1947, all of which were in the possession of the Russians. Remember after the war reparations were made by Germany to Russia and I would say that is one of the main reason that Sauer & Simson 1945 forward examples are found in Russia. I've read accounts that after the late 1930s and up until the end of WWII that the Krupp steel effort was diverted solely for the war effort(Krupp did not make sporting arms tubes, only the steel from which the tubes were drawn). Sauer had huge stockpiles of tube steel and that the 3 Ring stamp was very liberally applied. Post WWII it has been said that the stamp might even be found on bicycle tubes???? Krupp and Sauer paired up to develop and produce a weapons grade steel for sporting arms and some suggest that the 3 Ring suggest more of a Sauer origin/effort more so that that of Krupp. Also that there were so many tubes with the 3 Ring stamp that sporting weapons with the 3 Ring stamp are found on late 1950s examples. Where Sauer sourced their sporting arms during WWII, for now I cannot say. I think it was in the early 1950s that the 4 Ring(IZH 50A) stamp arrived on the scene.


Given as a 1946 Simson example


Given as anther 1946 Simson example




September 1946 dated Simson


April 1947 dated Simson


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Ah, Brother L.F. Cox you are on track and I really need to move all this stuff to a Krupp Steel thread or something of the like. Also I did find a Albert Wilhelm Wolf dated October 1945. One thing I have noticed and really haven't seen a large enough sampling to make a probability call, but it appears that between 1946 & 1947 the date shifted from the underside of the left tube to the underside of the right tube.


Albert Wilhelm Wolf Suhl October 1945

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Hey guys,

So is it misleading to have this gun labelled as a 1944? Raimey, those are beautiful pieces you have there!!!

Jerry

Nah, I wouldn't think so. I think the 1944 is more of a date that a serial number, assembly number or anything of the like. I'm not sure on the Italian proof facilities, but I'm highly confident that the German proof facilities were closed in the Summer of 1945 and reopened in September or October of 1945. I've read accounts that the Russian occupants under Major General Ivan Sazonovicha Kolesnichenko, Chief of the Soviet military administration in Thuringia, withheld black powder to prevent sabotage or an uprising. Either before the end of WWII or after October 1945, only black powder was available.
Right off, I can't recall seeing a German sporting weapon proofed in early 1945, but it is possible.

Below is one of the 1st Merkel(200E) to roll off the line and look whose initials are on the rifled tube; LK - Louis Kelber. Accounts give that Merkel was using surplus military blanks.


November 1945.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse