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Joined: Nov 2005
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Sidelock
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Originally Posted By: ellenbr
Peter:
I can't recall but when did Italy join the International Proof Commission/Conference. I think it in 1920 or was just after WWI? It may have been on or just prior to December 30th, 1923 when proof became compulsory. The effective date was October 16th, 1924. I have seen dates as early as 1910 when Royal decrees were enacted for proof rules. I believe it was post 1928 that Beretta sporting weapons wear the touchmarks of the Gardone Val Trompia proofhouse. Considering economics and the uncertainty of War, I would look there 1st for a sourcing possibility. Now there are Beretta examples of wartime pistols that wear Belgian touchmarks. And as you note post WWI the Germans had a heavy hand in Belgium and by WWII there were strong connections to Italy. So a Beretta-Liege sourcing line did exist. It is interesting that the "12 c" in the rhombus closely resembles the Belgian & English chambre stamp. The Star holds significance with the Italian Republic and the change from the crown to the star is more than likely found there.


It is thought that Italy has some form of proof house as early as the 16th century. But you must remember that Italy did not exist as a nation.

Brescia was privately operated by 1910. In 1920 the government opened the Gardonne proof house and the Brescia proof house in 1921. Dec 30, 1923 the proof laws were signed. They took effect on Feb 8, 1925. The provisionally proofed shotguns were done at 14,700 psi.

There was some ability to proof an arm that had not been sold around 1920 until Sept 1, 1921. These guns were stamped "BPD".

The 12 C in a rhomus / diamond is not an Italian proof mark, but the Belgian gauge designation given to shotgun proofed using black powder. There was no Belgian export mark until 1924. The English bore designation would not have the C (for choke).

Beretta had been selling Scott and other English made shotguns up until the early 1930's, perhaps later.

Pete

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Sidelock
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"C" in the post 1887 and pre-1925 British parlance was for chamber if I'm not mistaken & "LC" was for long chamber.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
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Sidelock
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Can anybody respond to Peter's common-but-hard-to-answer question about value, or is there a source for estimating the value of this gun short of looking at every pretty no-name sidelock sold on the internet this year?

I guess my first question would be: are you looking to INSURE it, or SELL it? If selling, do you need to sell it fast, or can you wait for a "better" price?

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Sidelock
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In my opinion, you might sell it at around $2K. It should not have any barrel problems or stock problems, which we don't see mentioned. Similar Belgian guns might bring that or 500 more. I still do not understand the barrel finish as it is somewhat crude.

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Boxlock
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Boxlock

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Daryl, I'm not looking to sell it quick, I dont mind waiting for a fair asking price with a fair offer matching. I'm not hurting for money at the moment, but part of the fun is finding out who made this thing, and the history behind it. At the moment, I have it valued close to what I paid for it just because I didn't know what else to reference.

Jerry

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Boxlock
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Boxlock

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bump for more help please! =)

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Boxlock

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Sidelock
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Bug..It is a nice no name Italian SL...not sure it worthy of the up grade to MasterPiece..as you have it listed for sale
franc

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Sidelock
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Has the look of a French man to me. Possibly Belgian . I also think the proof marks are later ,no real evidence just a feeling ,from looking at the pictures. Proof in France was optional until 1960 so hence my suspicions .

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Sidelock
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The Krupp barrels are a conumdrum to me. It seems to me that Krupp would have been in no position to supply steel, let alone barrels, for sporting arms during that period and for quite a while before and after.

So were the Belgians or Italians ever producing (possibly Krupp) steel for the Germans for their war machine?

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