doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com FFL Required For Antique Gun Transfer???

Think $$$$$$$$ here. If a FFL holder convinces the owner that he should make the transfer and it should be made to another FFL holder in the buyers State that's money in both their pockets.
I ran into this situation with a couple(two)C&R guns a few years ago. The seller had talked to an FFL holder who convinced him he would get into trouble for sending these firearms to someone with a C&R License. The Seller/FFL licensee wanted $100** per gun to do the transfer at his end. I of course would have had to pay the receiving FFL holder in my State as well.
Jim

**Yes. There's still "Highway Robbery" practioners out there!

What I have never understood in the FFL licensing is whether there is a mandate to sell when the letter of the law has been met, or is it like a liquor license that has the clause "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone".
For example if one has a real estate license but refuses to show a house because of the potential buyer's race or gender, they can potentially lose their license and be fined.
Does an FFL holder have the right to refuse to sell a gun to a potential buyer (who has every legal right to purchase that gun) because the buyer refuses to pay a fee that is not required under Federal Law?
I suppose the only answer would be to sue one of these guys in Federal Court in the case where a demand for a fee not required to legally purchase a gun coming under the BATF antique clause is made.
Any lawyers out there want to volunteer?

Happy New Year to all.

Well, there is a bit of gray area here that we have to contend with too. I still don't know if Kalifornia has laws that legally supercede federal requirements for transfer of guns into and out of that state. If they do, would they be violating the rulings under the Heller Decision, and would rectifying that require extensive and expensive legal wrangling? The big problem for almost all dealers is that when many guns come across their counters, they have no easy way of knowing just when a particular gun was made. In the case of the one I just bought, it is only 500 serial numbers shy of being beyond being classified as an antique. But it's still frustrating that even after I offer to submit documentation proving manufacture date on an antique, some dealers still won't budge. With some, I'm sure it's the prospect of getting paid $20 to $100 for a few minutes work, and with others, it's just a matter of not wishing to make the effort to learn the law. I guess we can't forget the CYA line of reasoning too.

This crap is precisely why we need to remain vigilant against further erosions of our Second Amendment rights, and most importantly in the immediate future... to get rid of Obama before he pulls any more "Fast and Furious" stunts or gets another crack at stacking the Supreme Court against us. If he had his way, we would be paying for instant checks and transfers for antiques that we decide to give to our own kids.

There is even more confusion when you study the sections covering IF the antique firearm uses ammunition that is readily available. The rules covering reproductions of antique firearms gets hard to understand. The rule book mixes rules for reproductions with rules for antiques and it gets nuts. The BATFE even has a comic book trying to explain some of their rules and regulations. I cannot even understand parts of the comic book and a 7 year old is suppose to be able to understand it. The BATFE wrote the rules this way to make sure that we could not follow them all. We have to wait for someone to get arrested and taken to court before a judge and wait for the judges ruling on the charges so we can know what a particular rule really means. Happy New Year To You ALL.

Colt SAA's are a good case in point. I have a 4 digit serial no. gun sitting here as I type this that I was sent for an evaluation. This particular pistol was inspected and sent with many others to the U S Army in 1874. Since the pistol was made in 1874 which is well before 1898 it is by the BATF definition an antique. However; This pistol is chambered in 45 Long Colt. Before the advent of Cowboy Action Shooting this may have been a non-issue but that shooting activity has revived many obsolete cartridges such as 45 Long Colt,38WCF,32WCF,etc. These cartridges are now readily available and can be purchased almost in any shop. Does this mean this SAA is now NOT an antique?
Or how about a Springfield 45-70 Trapdoor rifle? of around the same vintage. There has also been a resurgance of interest in this caliber for multiple reasons and 45-70 cartridges are readily available again. Does this mean that a 19th Century single shot rifle is now NOT an antique?
Gentlemen: I await your opinions.
Jim

Jim, If your question is ever ruled on in favor of removing the antique label on a gun for which ammunition is readily available all of our old doubles will be in question. Ammunition for the short chambered antiques with the possible exception of sub- 10 gauges and 14 gauges is now readily availble from companies such as RST, Polywad, New Era and others. On the other hand that does not remove them from the Curios and Relics catagory. Anyone who is legally able to obtain firearms can get a C&R license for $35 for 3 years.
I have no problem with anyone who wants a copy of my C&R for a pre-1899 gun in order to satisfy themselves that I am indeed eligible to buy firearms. However, I refuse to pay a fee for the opportunity.

Ready availability of ammunition has nothing to do with the issue of an antique firearm in the US.

If the gun predates 1899 it is an antique under federal law and is not regulated as a firearm - period. The only issue is proving its pre-1899 manufacture date.

If the gun does not use fixed ammunition (a muzzle loader) the date of manufacture does not matter and it is not regulated as a firearm under federal law even if it was made today.

The rule is clear. Guns with receivers producded prior to 1899 are antiques according to BATF, independent of whether or not cartridges for them are readily available. For example, I have a letter from the BATF research staff stating that Ludwig & Loewe marked M95 Chilean Mausers are all officially antiques, since Ludwig & Loewe ceased their production prior to 1899. (For those marked DWM, this is not necessarily the case, since they may have been producded in 1899 or later). The Ludwig & Loewe Mausers are all officially antiques, even though 7x57 ammunition has always been easily available.

The question of cartidge availability is only relevant for replicas, manufactured post-1898, of earlier guns.

Some states Like NY and NJ (possibly others) DO NOT consider the 1874 mfg'r Colt SAA in 45Colt an 'Antique'.
4473/NICS/pistol permit (or 01FFL) to purchase .

Confusing laws like that are why FFL's just opt for an FFL copy for any purchase . CYA.

It also must be remembered on the Lefevers, which I believe is the gun in question here, there are no concise records as to build dates. Bob Eliot gives his list as a "Reasonable Estimate" (My Words) but he makes no claim that they are exact, only from research that has been done. It is a well known fact that many of these guns were built out of sequence of their SNs. One "Might" be reasonably safe in selling any pre-large hook Lefever as an antique, but if I were a selling dealer I would definitely treat any large hook Lefever as a "Firearm".