doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Westley Richards T-series SxS

I looked at the first few WR guns on Gunbroker. #1 was $7K and had sleeved barrels (nothing wrong with good sleeved barrels). #2 was $8.5K and had both sleeved barrels and a Miller single trigger. Don't think I'll be bidding.

N.

Don't think this one is sleeved. It's been on a while. Price is maybe not what one is looking for, but it appears to be a good gun.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=265997581

Hi Daryl,

It's a nice looking gun. Nice wood, nice checkering, nice engraving. If only I had a spare $10K!

I note that the serial number is T10375, made in 1902. That makes a date of 1903 for my T11335 look possible.

N.

I don't know that this will answer any questions but perhaps it will raise a few about the W-R 'T' prefixed guns.



This is a partial photograph of a page of Westley Richards shotguns in inventory at Abercrombie & Fitch as of February 1, 1929. The page was created at the time when A&F had purchased Von Lengerke & Detmold, its Manhattan competitor, and the inventories of the two stores were combined in one ledger. There are 16 shotguns in the abbreviated list - 12 'T' prefixed guns, 2 letter 'O' prefixed guns, and two guns with no letter prefix. Most of the 'T' prefixed guns have serial numbers that start with T96xx. (eight to be exact). These numbers generally correspond to the serial number date range for the 'T' prefixed guns that is to be found in Nigel Brown's "British Gunmakers - Vol. 2". What is interesting is that the model name given to the 'T' guns is "Federal Grade". I have searched the VL&D, VL&A, and A&F catalogs between 1926 and 1933 and I do not even find the Westley Richards shotguns listed even though many other British makes are described. They seem to have had enough on hand to have put them in the catalog.

Of further interest, of the 12 T guns, three are a 16 ga, one is a 20 ga, and the rest are 12's. About half are full pistol grip (F), a couple are half pistol grip (1/2), and the rest are straight grips (STR). One of the T guns is marked as having a detachable lock (DET LOCK) and several as having single triggers (S.T.). This seems an anomaly if the guns are of a utility grade. The price of the DT guns was $300 and the ST guns were $390. The detachable lock T gun was $475. In 1929, a CHE Parker was only a bit over $200 so these were not inexpensive guns.

I also checked the 1907 to 1909 VL&D book and found several T guns there as well, including several single barrel guns. Most had serial numbers that began T28xx which also agrees with the Nigel Brown list. (Interestingly, one Westley Richards that did not have a T prefixed number was sold to John Philip Sousa.) There are four different models of W-R shotguns listed in their 1908 catalog but there is no indication which of the letter prefixed guns each may be, if any.

Sorry if this rambled a bit but perhaps it will help in some way.

Bob, thank you for all that information. As usual with any historical research, 14 new questions arise for every question satisfactorily answered! What your information does bring home is that the T series ranged from very basic models (like mine, with 0.5% engraved coverage!) through to examples with full engraving, gold inlay and detachable locks. One wonders what features actually defined the T series? I think I am going to have to invest the necessary �60/$100 and ask WR to send me a 'provenance certificate' for my gun, but first I shall have it put back into shooting condition.

Thanks again for your help. Appreciated.

Nigel.

Nigel,

Mike Bailey sent me some info on 2 WR's that I was asking about (one of which was a T series). He took a trip to the WR factory and told me that the T stood for Trade gun. This would certainly indicate a T series is not a best gun, but the posts within this thread certainly show that nothing is 100%.

Patrick:
Unless Mr. Bailey learned firsthand that "T" prefix guns stand for "trade" from a knowledgeable official of WR (such as Mr. Clode) I would be careful about the assumption.

Westley's also made G, K, O, E and "delta" prefix guns. What are we to make of those?

I, too, have been to Westley's and talked with the old guard, such a Ken Hulbert. In that regard, I simply urge caution about certain interpretations.

I also own a K gun. "Kremlin"?

Patrick: my T series is definitely not a best gun, but I wish I had kept a copy of the photo I found on the Cabela's site of the pair of T series guns made for the Maharajah of Sind. They were as you would expect for a Maharajah, not farmers' guns! On that basis, it would surprise me if T was for Trade. That said, many thanks for your input.

N.

Nigel, as stated above I was at the factory last Sunday visiting Chris who is head of production. He said the T meant made for trade i.e. retailed by someone else, this doesn�t mean it is not a best gun, just it maybe not, I will be posting the ledger copies to those concerned tommorow, best, Mike

I have a T series SM Explora from the 20's that was sold into India. Would the ledger page indicate it was not sold direct to the owner but to an intermediate broker? Or does the T indicate built for the trade but not necessarily sold to the trade?