doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Proof House in USA??

I think that Lapogus was the first in this long thread to mention that after a proof load is fired the barrel is measured with very sensitive measuring devices. The engineer or technician is looking for plastic strain or permanent deformation. Everything is a spring (elasticity, per Youngs Modulas) to the point of permanent deformation.

The tire test would be a form of proof test only if the barrel was measured (at many points) for deformation.

Lengthening chambers and forcing cones, backboring, and reaming metal to remove pitting are all modifications that do affect the strength of a barrel. The question is if there is enough metal remaining adjacent to the modified area so that the barrel will be safe with a SAAMI maximum MEAN pressure load. Yes, if one would read the SAAMI reference book they too would see that the loads are mean or average working or maximum pressure loads.

There are formulas for figuring the hoop stress of a closed cylinder (barrel with projectile being forced through it) just as there is for underground storage tanks. For fluid steel determining remaining barrel strength is a matter of working the engineering formulas. Now, Damascus steel is typically more ductile or elastic and thus more of a spring as Sherman Bell demonstrated with a small sample set of one fulid steel and one Damascus steel sets of Parker shotgun barrels, but that is another subject...

Good discussion,
Mark

I think that a lot of posters on this topic are missing the point. It's not whether proofing shotguns is a good thing or not. It's whether or not a proof house should be established here in the good old US of A. Contrary to what has been said about the proof system not being connected to the government in the UK, it is very much so. Who applies the criminal penalties? Who comes and takes you away? Any time law enforcement is involved it's the government. A statement to the contrary is ridiculous. Proof laws do not only to apply to shotguns but to every firearm. How about the gunsmith in Truth or Consequences, NM who wants to fit a used barrel from one handgun to another? Or maybe change calibers by machining up a new cylinder? The US is filled with gun tinkerers. Does government need to interfere with these people? This has to be the stupidest idea that has ever been proposed on this site. What the Europeans want to do with their gun laws is their business so good luck to 'em. We don't have to imitate them. We can stay the way we are.
nial

+1......This is the most senseless idea ever presented on ANY gun site...ever....

How about Larry Browns proposed SAAMI 18,000-19,000 PSI pressure test idea....what a pile of b.s....how many pre-1945 gun owners would want to jump in that line.......

Just haul your collection down and have it over-stressed for no reason whatsoever.......what a joke.......

For J.R.B. The Proof House 'Tyre'.





I took these photos some time back at the Birmingham Proof House. The Provisional Proof is done in an old brick shed and if you have a copy of Greener's book The Gun and Its Development then the illustration in the book is exactly as it is today.

As to who would enforce the prosecution. British law may differ to yours but anyone can take the prosecution before a court be it an organisation or an individual and that includes criminal cases. Yes an Act of Parliament was enacted on behalf of the Proof Houses so that it is enshrined in law. If they took the prosecution out and a person was found guilty then the court would impose a fine. If then the fine was not paid then the court could issue a warrant and a court appointed baliff could act on their behalf and collect the fine. If it was a Warrant of Distress then they are empowered to take as much of the offender's personal property as they see fit to be sent for public auction in order to recover the fine. Even library fines for unreturned books can be sorted this way. As we live in a democracy then the law of the land should oversee these matters so that they can be dealt with in a fair and legal manner. British law is old and complex as I know from spending over 30 years dealing with it as a Police Officer. The oldest piece regularly used is from The Justice of the Peace Act of 1361. One of my most unusal one was when I took the Chief Constable to court. He had to agree I was right and instruced the force Solicitior to throw the towel in but he ran it anyway just for fun and we had a good laugh about it; even the Chief! :-)

I don't view it as Government intervention in my life but a piece of legislation that is there to protect me the consumer from being sold a piece of rubbish that the seller knows to be rubbish without redress. We have similar legislation that covers the quality of gold, silver and platinum so that the consumer is protected.

Please tell me, how many of you would buy an English gun that was not correctly proofed? And if you did buy it I would suspect that that fact would reflect in the price paid. Lagopus.....

Doug, you ought to be in the business of writing fairy tales, because you do a great job of inventing things, and a very poor job of dealing with reality. But then anyone who'd debate REAL experts like MAJ Burrard and Gough Thomas on the question of long shells (loaded to appropriate pressures) in short chambers . . . what more should we expect?

I neither proposed nor invented the current SAAMI proof standards. SAAMI did that. Those are the proofs for currently-manufactured guns. Here's what that means, for Doug and others that might have trouble understanding the concept: If you are going to fire modern American factory ammo which falls under modern SAAMI service pressure standards, then yes indeed, your gun ought to be proofed at that level--because you're shooting the same loads that are being shot in a new Ruger, Remington, Mossberg, you name it. So if someone took the pre-1945 sxs you now own, which originally had short chambers, and lengthened those chambers to 2 3/4", then your gun ought to be able to pass that level of proof IF you're going to shoot modern ammo in it. However . . . back before WWII, when American gunmakers were making guns with different chamber lengths, they proofed those guns accordingly. A 2 5/8" 12ga, 2 9/16" 16ga, or 2 1/2" 20ga was subjected to lower pressure proof loads than were those same guns with 2 3/4" chambers. And you could go to the local sporting goods or hardware store, and you could buy shells appropriate--in both length and pressure--to your short-chambered gun. So if you have a pre-1945 shotgun with short chambers, then there's no reason to proof it at 18-19,000 psi, AS LONG AS YOU USE AMMUNITION WHICH DEVELOPS PRESSURES APPROPRIATE FOR THOSE GUNS--which are lower than the current SAAMI service pressure standards. And you can do that easily enough either by reloading standard American 2 3/4" hulls to pressures well below SAAMI standards, or by buying shells made for use in "standard proof" CIP (Brit/European) guns, or from people like RST in this country.

And Doug, I do have information--from period articles in The American Rifleman--backing up the above explanation about different levels of proof for American short-chambered vs 2 3/4" guns, back in the 1930's. If you hang around here long enough, you'll actually learn stuff like that. I have, and I'm sure you can . . . if you can keep an open mind.

I did not miss the point at all. Why however would anyone even consider a government law requiring a gun to be proofed or reproofed if they do not know what it pertains to?

Larry's point about a 19,000+ PSI proof load is based on fact. That is what US made 12 gauge guns are proofed at under SAAMI (reference: ANSI/SAAMI Z299.2-1992). If one wants to shoot a steady diet of 11,500 psi maximum mean loads (12 gauge) then they should be sure that a the gun will withstand a proof load. If not, then that person would be safest to shoot lower pressure loads. Passing a proof load test will ensure the gun is strong enough to survive SOME reloading mistakes, a little mud in the muzzle, perhaps a stuck base wad and so on. A little extra strength is usually a good thing.

About a US law concerning proofing guns, forget it! What agency would do it? Eric Holder's BATF might decide to blow up 20% of all guns that are sent to be proofed... It could happen. Let's keep things as they are.

Mark

Well lagopus, whatever about just who is bringing the criminal complaint in British law, it will be the government that will enforce the conclusion. I'm sure you will agree. To do otherwise is splitting hairs. And that's just what gun owners in the USA don't want. Government interference in gun ownership means only one thing; more restrictions. Legislation covering the fineness of precious metals is a whole other ball game. There one can be fairly certain that the law is really designed to protect the consumer. Not so with gun laws. No gun law has ever been all about protection of the gun owner or buyer. Not even the establishment of the proof houses in Britain. They were primarily for the protection and advancement of the better known gun makers.

However, your last paragraph/question deserves an answer because it's very pertinent. While I can't speak for anyone else, I certainly would not buy an English gun that was not correctly proofed. I'm also sure that you are right about price being affected by it's lack of correct proof. It's not uncommon to see British guns with chambers punched from 2 1/2" to 2 3/4", particularly 16 gauge guns for some reason, here in the US without reproof. Such guns will not command the same price as one done in England and reproofed. But even so, I still do not want a proof house here. I only have to read "The Field" or "Shooting Times" to see what the Government has done to shooters in Britain. They are reduced to forming "advisory committees" to tell the minister just exactly how they want to be f##ked. I'd prefer to avoid that kind of love if I can. Americans have a different attitude to politicians. We don't trust them. We know 'em to be lying, sleazy, two faced, thieving, conniving, have I left anything out? bastards.
nial

Larry and Mark, you guys completely missed the point of what is stated......."not whether 18-19K PSI is fact or not with SAAMI, "WHO CARES"........

BUT...WHO IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD WANT TO SUBJECT THEIR OLD GUN, DOUBLE/SINGLE OR OTHERWISE TO A HIGH PRESSURE TEST THAT IS NEEDLESS IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA...................

THIS THREAD HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH NEW GUNS....BUT OLD ONES AS ORIGINALLY POSTED BY BUZZ, PLEASE READ THE INITIAL POST.....i.e., sleeved/ altered guns etc......

Like I posted earlier, if you don't like butchered guns, don't buy them, walk away...I do...........

I knew Larry wouldn't get it, but I figured all the rest would.....?.........He can't remember what he writes I guess...?...

WOW-- words of wisdom from the great City that gave us: (1) Rocky Balboa (2) Great Cheese-Steaks, and lest we forget- (3) The Famous Flying Philadelphia %$#@ (something I'd even pay good money to see-

You, Sir- have nailed this down 6 ways to Sunday and back-- we have enough potential anti-gun "Hitlerities" in DC and elsewhere- remember that the Supremes by a scant 5 to 4 upheld the 2nd. Amendment, and if you play the odds- my $ says (sad to say) the GOP Fatheads will self-destruct in 2012 and we'll have the same anti-gun numbnut POTUS we have now- with 4 more sorry *&^ed years to maybe appoint another one or even two Supremes- look at the tenure and caliber (?) of the two most recent Supremes and read the handwriting on the wall-

By starting up a Gov't Proof house, we would be doing a complete 180 from the Tax rebellion that caused a band of ARMED PRIVATE CITIZENS to FORM A RAG-TAG BARELY EQUIPPED MILITIA- THAT KICKED THE LIMEYS TAILS BACK TO LONDON- and Cornwallis had to eat crow before King George for losing the pride of the Redcoats to the lads with the squirrel rifles hiding behind trees--We would be going back almost to the Dictatorship/Monarchy that has pretty much corn-holed private ownership and usage of firearms in England today- do we want to enable this? Watch out to don't become like Haman, the Biblical hangman, who ended up being well hung on his own gallows!!!!

Goodness me. Now that made me smile...such anger...

Maybe we should widen it up and start an argument about US v UK vintage shotguns too?