March
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Who's Online Now
9 members (bushveld, docbill, Dave Weber, cable, 2 invisible), 339 guests, and 4 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics38,374
Posts543,999
Members14,391
Most Online1,131
Jan 21st, 2024
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 4 of 4 1 2 3 4
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 496
Likes: 3
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 496
Likes: 3
Originally Posted By: tudurgs
I'm sure this topic has been discussed As Nauseum, but here goes - I have always heard that there was a period in Spanish mass markiet gun making that suffered from poorly heat treated parts and resulting soft components. If true, when did that occur?


Yes sir, that's a subject that has been done to death. It's also a subject on which there is more myth than substance, because it's complicated. Nothing about the Spanish shotgun 'industry' is anything other than complicated. I'll give this a shot.

Firstly, there is no such thing as a Spanish shotgun industry, nor is there anything like a mass marketing of Spanish shotguns. With some isolated exceptions, all Spanish shotgun makers are small businesses, with only a few employees (AyA has at present fewer has twenty employees and a visit to their shop will only find 10 or so working at any time) and some are/have been single man shops. Again with isolated exceptions, no Spanish shotgun maker actually makes all the parts that go into the shotguns he assembles.

Rather the structure of the shotgun business in Eibar is almost exactly like the shotgun business was in London, in the late 1800s. At present there are, to the best of my knowledge, only two makers of shotgun barrels in Spain. All of the shotgun makers buy their barrels from these two barrel makers. There are perhaps less than 3 or casters of locks, frames and other items that require forgings and these are individual artisans. Most engraving is done by local artisan contractors. There is only a handful, maybe less than 10, engravers in actual employ by the makers. In short, we have small independent business dependent upon a few parts suppliers and essentially all assembling guns to different styles from the same set of parts.

Spanish shotgun makers are shotgun assemblers; they hand fit parts obtained from an informal network of parts and assembly makers into shotguns, and stamp their names on the resulting guns as the 'manufacturer'.

Historically, when one of these makers received an order for fifty or a hundred guns from a US reseller (hardware stores, importer/resellers, etc) there was the potential that the maker would have a hard time meeting delivery deadlines. Many of these Spanish makers didn't produce fifty guns a year, total, and their suppliers of parts/assemblies couldn't supply the parts/assemblies to make more guns than that. What sometimes happened is the US buyer would push the maker to meet delivery deadlines, and the maker would push his supplier to make and deliver more parts/assemblies. In some cases the parts supplier could only increase the number of parts delivered by reducing the time it took to make a part or assembly. Sometimes the first corner that was cut was heat treatment on some of the parts delivered or more commonly, younger, inexperienced people were hired to do the job and the hardening just wasn’t done correctly as would have been the case with an employee with years and years of experience.

So we have cases where some soft parts/assemblies are delivered to and used by the maker to make shotguns. Shotguns are delivered to the US buyer and sold to US customers. Of the customers who got guns with one or more parts not heat treated, problems begin to develop in a month, or a year, in ten years, depending on the part and the amount and type of use.

The level of complexity in the parts makers/gun makers relationship is difficult to convey, especially to a US audience accustomed to thinking in industrialized terms. The Spanish shotgun makers are not industrialized; they are small shops who largely work without even power tools, at a blacksmith level of technology. They are artisans, not industrial workers.

All that said, the 'isolated exceptions' need a few words. There have been companies who attempted and largely succeeded in actually making all the parts they used to make shotguns. Victor Sarasqueta was one of these, as was (arguably) the AyA that existed before DIARM (the post DIARM AyA is a small shop). There was a time, before DIARM, when AyA made enough parts to have parts surplus to the needs of AyA, and sold these parts to anyone who could pay for them (AyA essentially acted as a parts supplier as well as a maker). The present day AyA would, I think, like to return to those days. Whether or not they will succeed is unclear.

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,438
James M Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,438
Thank you Kyrie:
This is one of the most comprehensive descriptions I've ever read of the inner workings of the Spanish shotgun imdustry. I hope you will continue to expand upon the above.
Jim


The 2nd Amendment IS an unalienable right.
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,373
Likes: 6
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,373
Likes: 6
Originally Posted By: italiansxs
Thank you Kyrie:
This is one of the most comprehensive descriptions I've ever read of the inner workings of the Spanish shotgun imdustry. I hope you will continue to expand upon the above.
Jim


+1. Nicely done, Kyrie


Such a long, long time to be gone, and a short time to be there.
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,850
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,850
Originally Posted By: italiansxs
Thank you Kyrie:
This is one of the most comprehensive descriptions I've ever read of the inner workings of the Spanish shotgun imdustry. I hope you will continue to expand upon the above.
Jim


I agree Jim, this is one of the most informative posts I've read. Kyrie--If either Jim or I would break a mainspring for example. Being each Spanish artisan makes his own individual part, could one get a generic Spanish mainspring and hand fit it for our gun?


Practice safe eating. Always use a condiment.
J.R.B. #254510 12/02/11 02:52 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 496
Likes: 3
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 496
Likes: 3
Originally Posted By: J.R.B.
Originally Posted By: italiansxs
Thank you Kyrie:
This is one of the most comprehensive descriptions I've ever read of the inner workings of the Spanish shotgun imdustry. I hope you will continue to expand upon the above.
Jim


I agree Jim, this is one of the most informative posts I've read. Kyrie--If either Jim or I would break a mainspring for example. Being each Spanish artisan makes his own individual part, could one get a generic Spanish mainspring and hand fit it for our gun?


Thank you, gentlemen – kind words always gratefully accepted :-)

In terms of a generic main spring, I think you have answered yourself with the phrase "each Spanish artisan makes his own". Remember my story about asking for firing pin and bushing blanks to fix a gun, and getting a dozen or so different kinds of bushings.

It isn't that there are no generic main springs; rather it's that there are a number of different generic main springs and you would need the right generic spring for your specific lock. Once you had a generic spring that could be fitted, then there is the problem of fitting the spring. This isn't just "stone it until it can be slipped in place." The spring has to be tuned to the lock so it provides enough force for reliable primer ignition, but not so much force that it starts beating up the firing pin.

I've recently bought some guns from a gun shop in Barcelona, and had them sent to Diego Godoy (master gun maker, and owner of Choy Armas). He will restock them and make me up a spare set of firing pins and main springs. The only spare parts we ever have for a Spanish side lock are the parts we had made for it when we bought it.

In re-reading what I wrote, I've painted a bleaker picture that really exists. If you should ever break a main spring it isn't hopeless. But it does mean sending the gun to some place like New England Custom Gun to have them make and fit the part. Not hopeless, just potentially expensive.

Gentlemen, if this is the kind of Spanish shotgun discussion you enjoy, you should consider joining us over on the Spanish Shotgun Forum; just follow the link in my signature. This kind of discussion is why that forum was created :-)

Kyrie #254537 12/02/11 04:50 PM
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,850
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,850
Kyrie--As for fitting a mainspring I'm not afraid of that. I fit the mainspring for my Remington 1900. My only fear is getting a part that I can make fit. Until one breaks I'm going to enjoy shooting my Spanish magic wand and I'm sure Jim will too.


Practice safe eating. Always use a condiment.
J.R.B. #254544 12/02/11 05:28 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 496
Likes: 3
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 496
Likes: 3
Originally Posted By: J.R.B.
Kyrie--As for fitting a mainspring I'm not afraid of that. I fit the mainspring for my Remington 1900. My only fear is getting a part that I can make fit. Until one breaks I'm going to enjoy shooting my Spanish magic wand and I'm sure Jim will too.


That being the case, if you should ever have the need get a copy of the Dixie Gun Works catalog and see how close you can come to the spring you need. Could just work :-)

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,438
James M Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,438
I have thoroughly enjoyed this thead and while Spanish guns aren't my main interest I certainly intend to log on to the Spanish Gun forum periodically.
Jim


The 2nd Amendment IS an unalienable right.
Page 4 of 4 1 2 3 4

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2024 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 0.076s Queries: 32 (0.048s) Memory: 0.8486 MB (Peak: 1.8987 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2024-03-28 14:56:08 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS