doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Big crowns and cavemen on prewar Sauer guns.

Gentlemen,

back to the topic:

a Sauer �Selbstspanner-System� sidelock shotgun SN 60255, having the hands cocking indicators according to DRGM 17913 and a lot of �the wild man with the club� markings:

Barrel flats: 2 (on each barrel � nearly invisible on the right barrel, but it�s present there also)
Round portion of left barrel: 5 (!)
Round portion of right barrel: 1

Plus the two large crowns on the right barrel.

What I don�t have an explanation for: Beside the factory applied SN 60255 it has two additional serial numbers 38012 and 36979 on the barrel lug as well as on the receiver.























Here are others I discovered recently:


http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=116963

Another sidelock Sauer, SN 60177. A very beautiful gun!


http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?t=58904

A hammer shotgun SN 45906. Maybe this gun holds the world record regarding pre-1945 German proof markings:

1/ crown/V used between 1st Jan. 1891 and 31st March 1893
2/ the complete set of usual shotgun markings 1893 � 1940 plus crown/R (repair)
3/ eagle/N and eagle/J of April 1942,

More German proofs are hard to find.

Regards

Martin

This gun is very interesting. It not only documents that Sauer was supplying barrels in the white. It also shows that there was a relationship with Fran�ois Dumoulin & Cie Societe Anonyme. FDC was the trademark for Dumoulin.

Which leads to another question. Dumoulin was heavily tied to Fabrique to National. So was Dumoulin acquiring barrels directly from Sauer? Or was FN the middleman? This was would not be the 1st time that FN was supplying German barrels to the Belgian trade. About 1900, FN was using Siemens-Martin for their barrels.

Pete

Peter:
I don't think the connection was that simple. I think Auguste Francotte was closely connected and the mainstay between Liege & Suhl but I'm not sure how he relates to Dumoulin & FN.

Nice find Martin and I guess we don't have the Sauer ledger for those serial number just yet do we.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

Both Dumoulin and Francotte were founding members of FN in 1888. Dumoulin had 600 preferred shares and 200 common shares.
Francotte had 0 preferred and 200 common.
Henri Pieper was the major share holder with 1200 preferred shares and 200 common.
They all maintained their own shops.

Auguste Francotte and Claude Gaier wrote Ars Mechicania, the history of Fabrique Nationle.

I think there still much to understand.

Pete

Any idea how the cross-sourcing occurred and was LLH or one of the other tube making craftsman a staple for tubes for the lot?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

I truly wish we had more to go on. There has not been a lot of research in this area, as you know. The work you and a few others are doing is stretching the boundaries.

If I had months to spend in Liege, I might be able to dig some more up...

Pete

Peter:
All right, tell me where you would dig......??

Interesting Sauer #153707 with Anson type forend latch. Anyone else think those to be a chopperlump tubeset?








Encircled "WL"????




Interesting position for Eagle Nitro stamp.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I would start at the Curtiss Museum. They have a journal, in French, only for members. They do not sell back copies that I am aware of. I believe they maintain a full set there. I would start with them. I would also interview the curator and some other people I know. That is for openers. I do not know if the local newspapers are archived, but I am guessing they are. I would also work the Sunday open market. I am told all sorts of things appear there. Including sets of salesman's sample of damascus. They are often sold for napkin rings. I am guessing that it might be good source for old documents.

Pete

Interesting sidelock dreil�ufer with a 3 Ring Sauer stamp and odd Krupp letters. Also lower tube looks to be 70mm 16 bore but the limited stamp images seem mixed in time. Maybe some Sauer Model 25/26 variant?









M4 looks at those cat-eyes






Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Stumbled upon these images of a Sauer hammer dreil�ufer at Shotgun world, I think it was, that appears to have experienced a stout once over on the tubes or more than likely a rebarrel effort on the scattergun tubes at the H�nel facility and then reproof at the Zella-Mehlis facility post 1911. Martin pegged it and I'm curious how he arrived at the conclusion. I don't see any crowns but I'd like to see the area between the flats and the forend hanger.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse