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I have tried to identify the proof markes on this water table using the "Standard Directory" as well as those listed in "The Modern Shotgun" as well as Greener. It appears to be a crown outline without anynotation above or below. Can any student of proof marks offer suggestions? Thanks in advance for help in this task.
Aloha.

Water Table #1

There has been discussions on these crowns before. They are not a proof mark as such, found on J P Sauer & Sohn guns. Seems as if Geno had some info on them, but don't recall what they actually were. I assume this is a Sauer as looked like the Sauer Man also stamped there.

I don't know what they mean but:

Ah yes, the infamous "Big Crowns". As 2-Piper mentions, these are not part of any national German proof regs, at least according to Engelhrart, Kennett, Wirnsberger or other reference I have seen but are fairly common on pre-WWII German guns, particularly Sauers.

Has anyone seen one of these big crowns on a gun _not_ from Sauer? I have a 1905-ish Sauer double with one big crown that is also marked "Prussia". There's always more to learn....

I have no reference to base this on, but suspect these may have been sort of a tax stamp in the various municipalities/states of Germany.

Thanks a lot!! I suspected they were german but could not find any definitive information. Best BBS on the net!!

You may already know this. 1891-1939 crown over S, supplementary mark designating shotgun barrels, crown over W, supplementary mark indicating barrels with choke. The two eagles (if that is what they are) provisional and definitive proof of shoulder arms. At the far right is a circle that should contain a number indicating the gauge. The proof load varied depending on chamber length.

I agree that the large crowns have to be a makers mark or perhaps as Jerry suggested a type of tax. Also, if the gun was made after WWI there was a limit on the arms production, so they may have something to do with that.

Pete

Pete; I have a J P Sauer & Son / VL&D "Knockabout" which has these two crowns. SN dates it to CA 1900 per the list published a few years back in DGJ.

Friends:

The proofs are obviously German, post 1892. As for the big crowns, any official mark using a "crown" as a tax stamp, etc., most likely went the way of the monarchy.

Notice how the crowns are decidedly different in their conformation. Perhaps one is the imperial crown and the other the Prussian state crown.

Just speculation.

Regards

GKT

The crown stamp on the right is an almost exact image of the Prussian Crown of Frederick the I, and of Frederick the Great.

The one on the left is most assuredly NOT the Imperial Crown of the German Kaisers, aka The Germans State Crown of 1871. It is, however, the spitting image for the 1806 Crown of Bavaria, first worn by Maxmilian I of Bavaria, after Napoleon made him king.

I am very certain that thats what these are.

Ok, why would this gun have the Prussian Crown and the Bavarian Crown on the water table? Maybe taxed in Prussia on manufacture, and then sold in Munich, tax paid there for sales or inventory?

Of course, then that raises the question of why would a VL & D gun, bound for market in the US, have both stamps, unless perhaps shipped through Bavaria and possibly taxed there in transit? Or perhaps these are customs marks?

Ok you knowlegeable folks... are these tax stamps?

Regards

GKT