doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Daly Damascus color?

Thanks & I'll add him. More images of tunes' Charles Daly with the Golcher lifter, which only differs by a couple hundred in the serial number vs. Joe Wood's:

Joe's Lock above

Looks to be almost identical locks=same lockmaker???








Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Joe Wood's W&C Scott and Charles Daly:









Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I've glanced thru some of the threads and found these hammer doubles:

Charles Daly 10 Bore 162
Charles Daly 10 bore 601 has CFW initials
Charles Daly 10 bore 796 with Jones Underlever was made in late 1871 or in 1872
C.F. Schilling St. Louis 953 with AS on left tube with AH in Action well
Charles Daly 10 bore 1033 has wide forend latch Deeley & Edge but not Lindner marks
Charles Daly 1092 with RS on tube and AR in action well
Thomas L. Golcher 1120 2 barrel set(No. 134?) - McPhail
Charles Daly 20 bore 125x possibly with English preliminary
Charles Daly 1366 has AS
Charles Green Rochester NY has AS
Charles Daly 10 bore 1569 has KS and no Lindner marks
Thomas Golcher 1662 no initials but H.A. Lindner stamps
Thomas Golcher 1741 has RS and H.A. Lindner stamps
Charles Daly 10 bore 1846 has H.A. Lindner's stamps
Charles Daly 10 bore 2015 has KS & H.A. Lindner stamps
Thomas L. Golcher - 212x with H.A. Lindner stamps
George W. Golcher 2187 no initials but H.A. Lindner stamps
Thomas Golcher 2403 has KS and H.A. Lindner stamps
Joseph Jakob 2962 has H.A. Lindner stamps A&D Brevete #1152
Joseph Jakob 3246 has H.A. Lindner stamps
Joseph Jakob 3241? in calibre 40-82
Charles Overbaugh 3474 has RS and H.A. Lindner stamps


Any others? Dr. McPhail any more info on the Charles Green? Jon S. any additional info on 1366 like bore size and forend latch type?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

My WM Schaefer and Sons. Ill have to pull the lock later

Thanks for the effort.

I was chasing The Daly Gun and veered off on a William Richard Schaefer tangent and thought Dr. McPhail might have some input. In 1853 William R. Schaefer hung out his gunmaking shingle in Boston at 11 Dock Square(House?). Interesting that this is also where Fred. G. Doell hailed from while William Richard Schaefer was at No. 61 Elm Street. In 1858 his is still at the same location, 11 Dock Square, as before per the Boston Directory. By 1868 he had partnered with J. Fredrick Werner to advertise as W.R. Schaefer & J. Fred. Werner Boston. It must have been somewhat short lived as in 1871 his address is No. 61 Elm Street, Boston where he advertises as being adept to re-boring scatterguns, which was a very new topic at the time. Even though a Schoverling, Daly & Gales catalogue? gives that the rights to the Ballard rifle were purchase by Schoverling & Daly in 1876, it appears that the acquistion was actually in 1873 and this may be what paired Schoverling & Daly with William R. Schaefer, who was listed as a Schoverling & Daly agent in 1877. William R. Schaefer was a superb shot and offered an Improved Ballard Rifle in 1876/1877 while advertising as "guns bored to shoot close and hard." W. R. Schaefer donated prize money for shooting events and in 1878/1879 donated a Daly Gun for an event. The 6 1/2 P.G. Ballard Rifle with Rigby pattern tube in 38-50 arrived on the scene about 1880 and I'm curious if W.R. Schaefer was involved. The organization of W. R. Schaefer & Son occurred in the 1881/1882 time period when J.R.F. Schaefer came aboard. In the next few years another son, Richard F. Schaefer, joined their ranks and the looks to have reflected it in advertising as W.R. Schaefer & Sons. Richard F. Schaefer, Dick as he was known, like his father was quite the shot and by age 17 could put on quite the exhibition of glass ball shooting at the Raymond Sportsman's Club in Melford, Massachusetts But this too was short lived and by 1890 there was a divorce with Richard F. Schaefer leaving William R. Schaefer & J.R.F. Schaefer at the helm. From here, Richard F. Schaefer's life doesn't appear to be a smooth one as he bounced around from city to city and on July 21st of 1909 was a clerk at a hotel in Norway, Me.(Maine?) he committed sucide abandoning a wife & son. I can't say if they were still a family unit or not but it would seem that William R. Schaefer would have taken in his daugher-in-law & grandson. Another interesting tid-bit is that just a few days later on July 23rd,1909, Fred. G. Doell also expired after a long bout with poor health. William R. Schaefer may have been a cock fighter or really liked chicken as in a 1900 advert, he promotes the wares of the Cyphers Incubator Company. Probably just the latter as he was peddling dunghills and/or showing dunghills. He may still have been active in 1917.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I forgot an item or 2 but I wanted to expand on the adverts of "guns bored to shoot close and hard." One item was that it appears that Wililam R. Schaefer rented his business space at No. 61 Elm Street, Boston and there was an incident on February 19th, 1893 at 9 past 6 o'clock in the evening that a careless match was tossed into some packing material and the fire brigade was called out. The owner was given as R.E. Denman.

Regarding choke boring, a one sided tale by Joseph W. Long in 1879 has that Fred Kimble was responsible for the advancement of choke boring. I think the topic has been discussed here, possibly ad nauseum, so all this may be spilt milk. But in the 1869-1870 hunting season, Fred Kimble and hunting partner Joseph W. Long decide to source heavier 12 bore muzzleloaders from Oliver P. Secor of Peoria, Illinois. Oilver P. Secor was born circa 1816 in New York and more than likely learned the gun trade there also. But since Mr. Joseph W. Long was from Boston he opted to have Mr. Joseph Tonks build his muzzleloader so somewhat of a contest arose for the sporting weapons with the better pattern, with both patterns to be forwarded via the post. But Joseph Tonks refused and convinced Joseph W. Long to have a breechloader built. A short while later, Joseph W. Long notes that he souced both Messieurs "Tonks and W. R. Schaefer" for choke bored scatterguns.

Fred Kimble's account of the origins of choke boring are a bit different and involved his practicing with musket barrels for choke boring. Evidently he had conveyed the technique to Oliver P. Secor as well as J.L. Johnson, who was some what physically challenged from choke boring so Fred Kimble would execute the pattern effort after the boring. In Iowa, choke boring was attributed to Mr. W. Ehrman, who along with a George R. Conrad travelled to Young America, Illinois in 1872 on an invitation by Fred Kimble, I assume, to watch gunsmith J.L. Johnson at work. A short time later an agent or sales rep. of Schovering & Daly was in his shop watching the exercise and noted that it was an exercise in futility so W. Ehrman suggest the jug choke. Folklore has it that the technology was transferred to The Daly Gun factory where W. Ehrman's method became a staple. Somewhere around 1882 or 1883 Mr. W. Ehrman's heath really began to deteriorate due to the choke boring, but he was purported to be one of the best.

So either of these tales could have been the conduit for the transfer or technology of choke boring from the Mid-West to Daly's "factory" in Suhl.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

A snippet from an 1881/1882 Schovering, Daly & Gales advert noting they are the agents for H. Piper in the U.S. of A. & Canada.

A public trial of sorts/contest was held in Cleve, Prussia in August of 1881 as a competition for pattern density & penetration test at 30, 45 & 60 yards using #2, #4, #6 and #8 size shot. Among the judges/jury were Kliumm and Keyssler/Keysaler as Royal Inspectors of Forests and Heise as an Inspector of Powder at K�ln. The new Diana Pieper sporting weapons achieved excellent marks at the top followed by an H. Roedel of Prague sourced from Pieper, W.W. Greener in 3rd place followed by N. Bodson Liege and C. Bartles Wiesbaden. H. Roedel's Piper example actually performed better at 45 yards than did H. Pieper's Diana and sources give he was in Prague from around 1870 to 1881. Interesting that a Heuse-Lemoine was in 13th place.

Thread on the 1881 H. Pieper Model Diana:
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=220155&page=1


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Charles Daly 10 bore hammergun in the 157xx serial number range:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=245703601










Then encircled PB is the same as that of Joe Wood's latest acquisition and in the same location. But the stamp on Joe Wood's appears to have a couple of efforts.



I'll wager a bet that the Golchers, etc., that are in the 15xxxx range are all from a single source and were completed for the most part, maybe less embellishment, in Suhl, maybe in Georg Lindner's shop, and then forwarded on to the respective firearms merchant in the U.S. of A. At this point I don't think the encircled PB to represent a German mechanic. Anyone know of a subcontractor to W&C Scott with the initials of PB? Or if Joel P. Brandon of London was a tube knitter or was somehow paired with W&C Scott? Any other guess on a British tube knitter with the initials PB?


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,just got back from vacation so behind on this tread. Great info on Schaefer-many Hammer Schaefers engraved by Nimscke
Latter one's made on Barrelled Actions-have one with Belgian action. Much detailed info @ choke trials in " American Wildfowl
Shooting" by J W Long (1879)-discusses Kimble,Tonks Secor and Schaefer guns and their paterns
You have listed Green and Schilling Guns I have. Also Thomas L
Goulcher hammer two BBL set 12/10 #1120 on action and BBl flats
no Linder Markings but Linder gun. You have pictures of these guns on the CD-you are welcome to post if you like.
Thanks for your post
Bill

Thanks Dr. McPhail. Were you at a Pine pruning symposium by chance? I'll try to get the images up tonight. Who has examples by Secor?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse