doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Daly Damascus color?

All right, here's what my Magic 8 Ball says. But before that let me recap a bit. Schoverling & Daly was founded in either 1862 or most give 1865. In 1868 Friedrich Wiebusch was listed as a silent or special partner and he expired in 1893, 2 years after August Schoverling. I'm fairly confident that Friedrich Wiebusch was founding partner in Wiebusch & Hilger(Hilger & Co. founded in 1848??) which arrived on the scene around 1876 and continued till say 1928. After Friedrich Wiebusch expired, Charles Frederick Wiebusch, William S. Hilger & M. Taussig were at the helm and were mainly blade peddlers. In 1892, about the time they were listed as the sole Sauer agents, they were in a tiff with the U.S. of A. over bowie knives, which they considered to be sidearms but the government didn't see it that way & they lost. The seem to have drug in some Belgian arms also and all appears to have left port at Antwerp. Getting back on track, in 1869/1870 Schoverling & Daly advertised as being an agent of William Powell & Sons and the scattergun in the advert looks to have the lifter action but the verbiage is as follows:
"4 systems - Lever Under Guard Double Grip, Side Snap, Top Snap Double Bolt & New Triple Fastening" and I am pleased to see
B. Jacob of Selma, Alabama as an agent. I think it was in 1871 or 1877 as I've gotten my dates crossed but surely in the 1870s, SD&G had a satellite office at No. 65 Weaman Street, Birmingham and that seems to be the address of Tolley. Schoverling & Daly were involved in several import/retail houses and just like the tale that Charles Daly spun on the stand in the early 1890s(A. Schovering possibly would have been in the hot seat but he was on holiday in Germany where he expired) it seems that components were being imported as follows as all along with others were listed as agents of Schoverling & Daly:
Tubes to William R. Schaefer was located 61 Elm Street, Boston, Massachusetts;
Locks & Traps to Thomas L. Golcher 116 West Girard Street Philadelphia, Pennsylvania(Joseph Jakob was also in Philly);
& Stocks/wood to Schoverling & Daly in New York. This would explain how all those similar components landed up on American assembled sporting weapons from the period. Now the possibility exists there were other import houses but these were Schoverling & Daly agents in the cities where the imports arrived. Schoverling & Daly advertised the "Daly Gun" as an import gun but then when the import tariffs were imposed the "Daly Gun" was a homegrown sporting weapon. Then in 1879 bicycle peddler Joseph Gales was added to the management.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, I would wonder if C E Overbaugh of 265 and 267 Broadway, NYC, might also have been an agent. Their catalog ca. 1886 appears similar to S D and G. I have their double barrel hammer gun which is also a Lindner import.

Mr. Hallquist, it is possible. Let me see if he was an agent.(I see an E.S. Phelps of Rochester, NY but no C.E. Overbaugh in the early to mid 1870s)
Heindrick August Schoverling was a partner, senior member more than likely, of at least one if not all of the import/retail houses/concerns until 1888 at the age of 48 when he was diagnosed with heart disease. From the remainder of his life he tooled around Europe until a cold turned to pneumonia in D�sseldorf on the Rhine. Earlier in 1859 he began his journey as he departed Osnabr�ck, Hannover and immigrated to NY where he secured empolyment at Hermann Boker & Company, the same firm where Charles Daly was an employee. By the early 1860 he was head of the firearms department and in 1865 he & Daly left Hermann Boker & Company to hang out a single shingle bearing the name Schoverling & Daly. I don't think he had a stake in Hermann Boker & Company. According to testimony they operated their own import/retail house in the 1880s. Can you tell me if C.E. Overbaugh offered a Body Action/A&D in 1886? All these Scott Action hammergun types and Lindner Body Action/A&D types could have easily permeated the U.S. of A. gun making network from the 3 import nodes. Me thinks it was 1883 when the import laws began to put a crimp on their business? - http://www.archive.org/stream/usimportdutiesun00unitrich#page/132/mode/2up

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

By 1885 Charles E. Overbaugh was next door neighbours to Schoverling, Daly & Gales and had to be an agent as in the early 1880s Schoverling, Daly & Gales were handling Henri Pieper's wares and this 1885 Charles E. Overbaugh gives many of the items Schoverling, Daly & Gales were peddling, especially the "Charles Daly Gun": http://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/item_desc.php?item_id=544

DGS C.E. Overbaugh thread: http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...d0ddaf743c433a0

The tube knitter with initials "LE" seems common on early Charles Daly sporting weapons as well as those of C.E. Overbaugh. I had assumed(assumption is the antithesis of exactitude) that maybe some else was keeping a talley of all the Lindner like tube knitter initials on U.S. of A. maker's scatterguns but I may need to browse thru this thread and fetch them all out.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
Rse

Raimey, I see the Winchester Model 1887 in the catalog, so it is around that date. Also the catalog says that Overbaugh has all of the Sharps long rang actions that are left , as Sharps has gone out of business.

The catalog offers the Harrington and Richardson A and D guns in 5 grades. Maybe somewhat odd as H and R quit making the guns possibly a couple of years before.

Daly hammerless A and D guns are offered in 5 grades from $110-$225 , the latter Diamond quality. The guns sport cocking indicators.

Daly hammer guns are offered with the Scott action and Deeley and Edge forend latch. Extension rib and slight engraving on Model 401 for $70. Model 402 same as 401, but with Purdey double bolt at $80. Model 403 same as 402 but with 3 pin lock and more engraving at $90. Model 404 same as 403, but with Cluny Damascus , fine engravin, at $120. Model 405 , Diamond Quality, with Bernard or Turkish first quality barrels, exquisite engraving at $200.

Also offered was a Daly three barrel gun peninsula locks, rib extension, at $75.

I note the catalog has pictured the Baker Model of Ithaca Gun Co. hammer gun. This model was changed in 1888, as I recall, so catalog date of 1887-88 is my best guess.

Yes, those are the same descriptions in the 1870/1871 Schoverling & Daly advert. The 3 pin configuration is the breaking point from lower run to upper rung. The following image of the Golcher with U.S. of A. Patent #95998:


is the same as image in the hammergun in the 1871 Schoverling & Daly advert.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=c31LAAA...869&f=false

And here's what I guess: Daly was sourcing components or parts kits from W&C Scott of Birmingham until late 1870 or 1871 when he established his "factory" in Suhl, which was just having Georg Lindner to subcontract the work using components sourced from W&C Scott. Prior to that he may have been having the work performed by American craftsmen like Golcher & Overbaugh but the marks on those pre-1870/1871, or lack thereof, may answer the question of effort sourcing. Or, he may have been having William & Charles Scott manufacture his wares. Joe Wood may have a Daly Gun that is the missing link.

Mr. Hallquist's Daly gun is an early one and probably pre-1874, or when H.A. Lindner commenced applying his quality control mark.





Possibly Albert Stobbe(founded 1865) if "A.S."





Possibly a forerunning to the Lindner-Daly wide forend hanger.

Then there's the George Golcher & other Golchers in the mix:







Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

From what I've read the Gilbert H. Harrington & William A. Richardson Body Actions/A&Ds were manufactured from 1880 till 1887 when they patented some type of safety hammerless scattergun. Then in January of 1888 they reorganized into the Harrington & Richardson Arms Company and may have ceased manufacture then.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Mr. Hallquist's Charles E. Overbaugh & Company NY but I can't see the serial number:







T. Golcher on top?



http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=116218&page=1

Joe Wood's latest acquisition with serial number 15251:



A little pic heavy so more below.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

More image of Joe's prize and his W&C Scott below:
















W&C Scott from 1870

The serial number of 1525x, Birmingham preliminary proofs and "STUB" stamps hints at a Birmingham origin and William & Charles Scott. Some may say ah, Charles Daly could have sourced the components from from Sauer and yes Sauer peddled sporting weapons from (1862)1865-1872 time period with examples like Onion & Wheelock percussion also having Sauer's name on them. But Sauer as we know it was organized till early 1873. So Schoveling & Daly, H.A. Lindner & Sauer all really began to grow their roots in the early 1870s. Daly may have been the reason, possibly thru contacts of Hermann Boker and/or August Schoverling, for the cash infusion and subsequent expansion during this period. I think W&C Scott may be responsible for the "bump" on the forend???

Understanding Charles Daly & the gun trade, I'm going to speculate that brothers Golcher, Jakob, Overbaugh, etc. were agents or associates in Schoverling & Daly. After establishing his "factory" in Suhl, which was more like an infusion of funds, he had the Lindners to facilitate effort sourcing on the orders with either homegrown or imported components and had their name roll stamped or engraved on the sporting weapon that they were going to peddle. Take George Fisher for example. He was a porter in the firm and may have attained a higher rank at some point. But after he expired, Charles Daly had guns made with his name roll stamped on the top rib. I think the same for Wiebusch & Hilger( Charles Frederick Wiebusch, William S. Hilger & M. Taussig ). Very little effort was applied on this side of the pond with the names atop being pretty much firearms merchants.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, thanks for all the pics. You can E.P. Taylor, 72 E. Madison St., Chicago, to the list of Daly shotgun sellers. This is from an April 28, 1877, ad.