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Joined: Nov 2005
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Originally Posted By: ellenbr
Peter, I invite comment and conjecture from sauerfan and anyone willing to chime in on the patent aspect. Do you know of any A&D use stamps on Belgian sporting weapons?
.... For now I would guess that the connections of either August Heindrick Schoverling or Charles Daly both had extensive connections and could have brokered a deal with an entity in Liege who was dolling out A&D permission/use numbers. I wonder how one tracks those use numbers anyway. ....


Raimey,

I also have wondered about the "use numbers". I have never found a good reference that lists / tracks them. I do not recall seeing them on Belgian guns. They all seemed to jump on the A&D patent as soon as it became available for public use. They were not alone. Many British makers did the same. I seem to recall the British renewal fee was something like 5 pounds.

Just remember that our friend Daly was not above twisting the law when ever it lead to a profit.

So many of the Philadelphia makers produced these guns. I am convinced there was some local marketing going on to the trade.

I just lost a TL Golcher by the way. Won the auction, then the seller refused to ship. Finally recovered my money. I think he figured out what he had....



Pete

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Peter:
Disheartening about the missed opportunity. More than likely held more pieces to the puzzle. I've seen the acronym APUN and phrase Action Patent Use Number tossed about, which may have just been used in Britian or it may have been applied across the continent. I was hoping you had seen the term, or a similar term, in the Belgian gunmaking circles. Did Auguste Francotte have any boxlocks destined for the U.S. of A. during the 1880-1890 period with any similar Action Patent Use Number? He like Daly had worldwide connections and yes Daly knew the law so well that he bent it where ever he could because it was all about the Benjamins and he never dreamed that some small pool of doublegun nuts would try to scrutinize every minute detail of his business model. I think Charles Daly's son, Charles Howard Daly, Yale grad, business, attorney??, and was more than likely an attempt by Charles Daly to keep abreast of the every changing import laws. The 1890s cross-examination may have been a factor. But Daly had been to England and around the gunmaking circles attempting to get someone to put his ideas into practice. Early on he had imported examples from Tolley and others so he was aware of British sporting weapons advances and their laws but they were most unaccommodating so he turned to Suhl, probably biased by August Heindrick Schoverling, for his Daly brainchild.

I believe in British gunmaking circles that the stamp "Anson & Deeley's Patent" was used for the Action Patent Use Number or to attribute design ownership.

I think it was H&R, and possibly others, that wore the stamp "Anson & Deeley's Pat. Feb 1. 1876" during the 1876-1890 period. Anyone have any ideas on how the royalty was paid?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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Raimey, the Anson and Deeley contract with Harrington and Richardson called for a Royalty of fifteen shillings per gun, up to 1000 guns per year. After that the royalty was 12 shillings and six pense. Payments were to be made quarterly, starting March 1 and due not later than the end of that month. R E Couchman, 6 Waterloo St., Birmingham was listed as the Licensor. Date Feb. 20, 1880.

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http://www.bonhams.com/eur/sale/17947/lot/297/#

If anyone is interested Bonhams gives Westley Richards #5056 as the 1st A&D boxlock commenced in 1875 and completed in 1879 for Mister John Deeley. On the underside of the receiver is "The First Anson & Deeley Hammerless Gun Patented 11th May 1875". It would have been foreman William Anson(not John Deeley) that in 1877 fell out of love with Westley Richards and hung out his own shingle.

It appears that some Francotte VL&D's/Von Lengerke & Detmold, US Agents, New York were marked Anson & Deeley or something of the like.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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Originally Posted By: Daryl Hallquist
Raimey, the Anson and Deeley contract with Harrington and Richardson called for a Royalty of fifteen shillings per gun, up to 1000 guns per year. After that the royalty was 12 shillings and six pense. Payments were to be made quarterly, starting March 1 and due not later than the end of that month. R E Couchman, 6 Waterloo St., Birmingham was listed as the Licensor. Date Feb. 20, 1880.


Mr. Hallquist, that is great info and many thanks for the effort. I wonder if Robert Edward Couchman was their retained counselor although in 1878 he is listed as a Surveyor with Couchman, Willmont & Counchman if he is one in the same? Any guess if Robert Edward Couchman was the Licensor or were there multiple in Birmingham as well as some in other gunmaking centers. Ok, who has H.A. Lindner's quaterly sheets; maybe Mr. John Mann?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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Raimey, it appears Couchman was a representative of Anson and Deeley. His name appears on the June 22, 1876 contract with Westley Richards, allowing WR the use of the Patent for the sum of 15 shillings per gun.

Is it your thought that somewhere in the early 1880s the Westley Richards Co. acquired sole or all patent rights to the May 11, 1775 pat No. 1756 of Anson and Deeley ? In the later 1880s it appears Westley Richards was issuing Patent Use contracts to others such as Scott, Bentley and Playfair etc.

Yes, I think Couchman was listed as a surveyor. I am told they were the brightest people of the time.

Last edited by Daryl Hallquist; 07/12/11 12:56 PM.
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Apparently I misread as it was William Anson that fell out of love with Westley Richards. John Deeley stayed on and had some 30 additional patents. Also Robert Edward Couchman was a/the director of Westley Richards and was the one who brought the A&D patent infringement suit against W.W. Greener, which Greener won. So Robert Edward Couchman would have been the one who was accepting the royalty payments and then policing to some extent. It appears that about 1890 that a Leslie B. Taylor became the director and would have had the same responsibilities. It was Deeley & Taylor that patented the Westley Richard's droplock in 1897. I think Westley Richards acquired the rights in 1883 when patent 1883/83 was filed by William Anson (& John Deeley???) on advancements to the 1875 A&D patent. Ken can give a correct date, but I would guess that this was also the time of the 1st H.A. Lindner Daly examples based on the A&D patent.

I bet Dig would have some info in researching for his boxlock text.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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It appears that Auguste Francotte's von Lengerke & Detmold were stamped with Anson & Deeleys Patent or something of the likes. Auguste Francotte was at 110 Cannon Street, London till about 1883 and his patent agent was John Piddington in 1872, if I read it correctly. VL & D must have arranged payment thru August Francotte to Westley Richards for the use of the A&D advancement. Anyone know?

William Anson's U.S. of A. #305264 patent of 1884 for a top/overhanging safety scear:

http://www.google.com/patents?id=58lCAAA...882&f=false

It appears that examples from both H.A. Lindner and Auguste Francotte are more similar to the Anson 1884 patent.


10 Bore from this thread: http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=126591

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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Ok, you hardcore Anson & Deeley Brevete stamp fans, much like Mr. Hallquist notes for H&R the same applied to Joseph Brazier, who was an erstwhile tube maker a few years prior to striking a deal with Westley Richards. So in 1876 Joseph Brazier signed up for the quaterly payment schedule thru Robert Edward Couchman for A&E patent 1756 of 1875 (and the Anson forend patent 4513 of 1876??) for a total of 30 shillings per action, which was to be submitted to Westley Richards for the stamp to be applied. So if Westley Richards was applying the stamps in Britian, I would now say that H.A. Lindner, or Charles Daly, was having the frames stamped at a Westley Richards satellite station or approved frame stamping location(Westley Richards & Auguste Francotte were real chummy). Possibly in Liege, I can't say for now but it gives a direction to search. H.A. Lindner would have sourced the frame forgings locally and either he or his subcontractor performed the filling and action work then had the "Anson & Deeley Brevete" stamp applied.

It appears that Westley Richards and director Robert Edward Couchman may have been fully involved much earlier than previously surmised, being as early as 1876?

All this begs the question of how Charles Daly circumvented the 1873 Deeley & Edge forend latch U.S. of A. patent #140482 by John Deeley and James Simeon Edge, Jr.:

http://www.google.com/patents?id=F5lPAAA...p;q&f=false

As a sidenote John Deeley had a son named John Deeley, Jr. that held several patents.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


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The story of Schoverling, Daly & Gales permeates so, so many facets of weapons retailing that I don't know of anyone who knows the whole story and hopefully someone will pen an overview much like is needed on firms Auguste Francotte & Henri Pieper. In chasing the A&D Body Action it appears that Anson & Deeley were patrons of the arts at the very least and more than likely they, or their children, Edwin Anson(Hanson) & John Deeley the younger, were artists in their own rights. So let's begin with a little info on William Anson's(previously Hanson??) who was christened/baptisted on August 2, 1830 as the son of Edwin Hanson. I assume the event was shorlty after his birth so more than likely he was born in 1830 near Wolverhampton. William Anson(Hanson) had 11 children with one being William Westley Anson/Hanson who expired at the age of 23 after a decade of suffering with the infliction of epilepsy. So it would not be too much of a stretch to say that William Anson named a child after the Westley Richards firm for which he worked. There is speculation that both William Anson & John Deeley crossed the pond at least once in the 1880 - 1886 period. William Anson(Hanson)'s son Claude Alonso emigrated to Worcester, Massachusetts where he & his son Wilfred Anson worked for none other than Harrington & Richardson. Now I typed all the above just to set the stage for the following: Gilbert Henderson Harrington & William Augustus Richardson founded H&R in 1874 at 18 Manchester Street, Worcester, Massachusetts held the exclsuive U.S. of A. rights to manufacture the Body Action of A&D/Westley Richards from 1880(March 1st) to 1885(some sources give 1886 & 1887) when H&R decided to go with their revolver money making venture. So there's the Westley Richards - Harrington & Richardson connection. Now in 1881/1882, J. Palmer O'Neil & Company of 68 Fifth Avenue, Pittsburg, Pa. was the sole agent of Westley Richards(referenced as established in 1820) where are noted as investors and sole owners of A&D Body Action patent. During the same period H&R advertises that all their A&D Body Action scattererguns are inspected by Mr. Deeley. I think H&R tooled up to meet the rising demand for doubles for buck-shot. Later their scatterguns doubled as flare guns, but I digress. Also in 1882 Schoverling, Daly & Gales were "Sole Agents" for the Harrington & Richardson Body Action/A&D, inspected by Mr. Deeley, & the Daly Gun which was noted as the "Scott Action"/hammergun with Models 42, 53, 55, 60 and 100 which was the Diamond Quality. No hammerless Charles Daly import weapon was noted in this November 2nd, 1882 advertisement. I haven't seen any advert up to say 1883 where Schoverling, Daly & Gales peddled any other A&D Body Action scattergun other that the H&R(someone feel free to correct me.) Therefore, there was little reason for there to be a Charles Daly scattergun, which was almost always defined as an import gun, made on the Body Action until Schoverling, Daly & Gales fell out of love with Harrington & Richardson and just for arguments sake let's say that occurred in 1885. So Charles Daly had to be well associated with William Anson(Hanson) & John Deeley, and setting up a permission of use on the contient in the mid 1880s is not that much of a stretch. I'm sure I can conjure up much more if anyone is interested.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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