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#232620 - 06/16/11 08:20 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
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Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8918
Loc: North Alabama
Ah, Jani now I see the light. Those missing letters are like zeros. They don't seem to have much meaning until you stack them side by side.

Jim:
I'm going to say that you have a longarm that the owner, who was possibly a client of Franz Denk, went to Frank Denk and requested a rebarrel and that would make the Lefaucheux Variant III mate with the 10,75X52R. If the longarm experienced some kind of proof in 1902 and it is chambered for the 10,75X52R Springer Marine that might also narrow the initial date for the cartridge. Any chance you could post an image of the datastring?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#232633 - 06/16/11 09:12 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
James M Offline
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Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 7437
Loc: Arizona
Per your request Raimey.
Please note that a picture is sometimes better that a magnifing glass. It is 1031 NOT 1081 as I previously reported.
Jim




Edited by italiansxs (06/16/11 09:14 PM)
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#232677 - 06/17/11 07:13 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
fuhrmann Offline
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Registered: 03/15/10
Posts: 121
Jim,

this is the number given by the proof house, first guess is Vienna.
1031 consecutive number
02 year 1902
9'6 app. groove diameter

more proof marks should be seen somewhere in the breech area

fuhrmann

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#232685 - 06/17/11 08:25 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
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Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8918
Loc: North Alabama
Typically the datastring for the preliminary pass is on the lower rib and the final pass is on the tubes just forward of the flats. The span from 9.6mm to approx. 11mm is a bit of a stretch from the preliminary to the final, but is possible. The Franz Denk example appears to be devoid of the final pass marks, weight of tubeset in grams on the lower rib, along with the stamp noting Nitro powder exposure. Thanks Jim for the effort.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#232689 - 06/17/11 09:10 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
James M Offline
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Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 7437
Loc: Arizona
I just remiked the barrels at the muzzle. and I'm now getting right around 10mm(40 cal). Either the mike was slightly off on the first reading or it's my tired old eyes.
Again I should know more after a chamber cast next week.
I am also going to have to put a value on this gun for insurance purposes. What are your recommendations?
Jim


Edited by italiansxs (06/17/11 02:20 PM)
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The 2nd Amendment IS an unalienable right.

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#232749 - 06/18/11 12:16 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
pwm Offline
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Registered: 01/08/04
Posts: 209
Loc: germany
with the things we are knowing now I would say its an older blackpowder cartridge similar to 45/70 loaded with BP and a bullet not heavier than 300 grain. a possible cartridge could be the 10x60R 400 if the chamber is long enough. this is a shorter version of the 400 BPE 3" Purdey and was popular around the turn of the century in austria.
BP cartridges may affect the value as a hunting rifle, practical and economical in the real world. in any case you have to load your ammo with a custom die set and make your own brass. but its a nice double rifle for sure.
a chamber cast will show it

its hard to judge such a double rifle because they are allways rare and unique. in germany it will be go in the 2000 -3000 euro range in an auction


Edited by pwm (06/18/11 12:28 AM)

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#233028 - 06/21/11 04:13 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
James M Offline
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Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 7437
Loc: Arizona
Here is the chamber cast I made this morning of the Springer rifle


Here are the dimensions:
Overall case length 56mm the end of the case isnt clear but we used the black dot as the likely length.
Rim of case to start of rifling 63mm
Rim diameter 14mm
case diameter at breech 11.5mm
case mouth diameter 10.25mm
bore lands 10mm
bore grooves 9.75mm

This is a round with a slight taper from the breech to mouth end and no neck like the Springer 11.75x52R round.
I've tried to be as accurate as possible here but there may be slight variances in these measurments.
BTW: The gunsmiths stated and I agree that the rifling is of the gain twist variety.


Edited by italiansxs (06/21/11 04:22 PM)
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#233039 - 06/21/11 05:36 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
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Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8918
Loc: North Alabama
Conjures up images of the 10X55R Sauer, if such a bird existed, but I think the rim was a bit larger. I like Lancaster's blind guess but I couldn't say what the rim diameter might be. If it is the 10X60R Hunting or 400 Express, we may have a match:

Case: 60mm
Rim: 13.95mm
Base: 11.35
but it does have a neck of 10.6mm

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#233044 - 06/21/11 06:30 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: ellenbr]
James M Offline
Sidelock
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Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 7437
Loc: Arizona
Raimey:
The case length is kind of the key here and I can't tell for sure just looking at the casting where the neck ends and free bore begins and neither could the two gunsmiths I work with. It could very easily match the dimensions you've posted above but I don't know how to tell.
Jim
The 400 Express is a necked down 450 so that isn't it. I can find virtually no information on the 10x60R.

In rummaging around thru loose cartridges I found this dead example that's a perfect fit at the base.
However it military marked and I don't know the caliber. I'm wondering if it could be trimmed and blown out(fire formed) for reloading once identified?



Edited by italiansxs (06/21/11 07:04 PM)
_________________________
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#233053 - 06/21/11 08:24 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8918
Loc: North Alabama
It must be some variant of the 10x60R which was strongly based on the 400 2.5" Kynoch but may have been a wee-bit shorter. Maybe Lancaster will awake a little later and know the answer.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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