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#233633 - 06/27/11 10:40 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
James M Offline
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Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 7437
Loc: Arizona
From the scant information I can find about this cartridge; it apparentely was originally loaded as a black powder round then converted to nitro powder. Does anyone have any loading data for the 10x60R 400 Express?
http://www.municion.org/10/10x60R.htm
Jim
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#233909 - 06/29/11 03:16 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
pwm Offline
Sidelock

Registered: 01/08/04
Posts: 209
Loc: germany
this site is usualy good but completly wrong here
10x60 R Express/ .450-.400 Express 2-3/8" / .400 Express / DWM 76 / DWM 96 / GR 127

DWM 96 / GR 127 is the 11,6x60R 450 express, short version of the 450 BPE 3,25"

.450-.400 Express 2-3/8" , british mother of the 10,3x60R Swiss

.400 Express, common designation for the long Purdey round


10x60 R Express, 10x60R 400Expess would be the right designation but the measurments on this site are for the 11,6x60R 450


I dont see till now another maker and it seems that the 10x60R 400 was only made from Georg Roth in Austria

case number GR 143
bullet number 589

the fact that was ever made with the lead bullet makes it clear for me that this was only loaded with black powder. production of this round may stop with the outbreak of WW 2 in 1939 for ever but it was a very obsolete cartridge in this time also.


you see here 11,6x60R 450 cartridges




Edited by pwm (06/29/11 03:24 PM)

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#233913 - 06/29/11 03:25 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
James M Offline
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Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 7437
Loc: Arizona
I intend to do the following unless someone has a better idea:

1.Obtain some 303 British Enfield brass
2.Fire form the cases so they're the correct size albiet a little short.
3.Load the cases full with blackpowder.
4.Crimp the heaviest 10mm bullet I can find in and start from there.

Thanks for the info PWM but I expect there's a safe smokeless equivelent to the black powder load. It's just going to take a little digging.
Jim
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The 2nd Amendment IS an unalienable right.

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#233984 - 06/30/11 10:40 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
pwm Offline
Sidelock

Registered: 01/08/04
Posts: 209
Loc: germany
of course, there will be a safe smokless load and the rifle itself looks very good. I would measure the velocity of the maximum blackpowder load and work up to this with nitro.
similar nitro for black loads in other cartridiges dont go over 500 m/sec.
a 10mm softpoint bullet at 500 m/sec will be enough for whitetail deer I suspect.

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#234488 - 07/05/11 04:20 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
fuhrmann Offline
Sidelock

Registered: 03/15/10
Posts: 121
Originally Posted By: italiansxs
I intend to do the following unless someone has a better idea:

1.Obtain some 303 British Enfield brass
2.Fire form the cases so they're the correct size albiet a little short.
3.Load the cases full with blackpowder.
4.Crimp the heaviest 10mm bullet I can find in and start from there.

Thanks for the info PWM but I expect there's a safe smokeless equivelent to the black powder load. It's just going to take a little digging.
Jim


Jim,

yes, that will be the way to go.
Some more things to consider, from my own limited experience with loading old cartridges:
- different brands and granulations of black powder will give different results
- if using less than a full case of blackpowder, use felt or cardboard wads to fill up the case
- finding the right bullet may be trial and error. Finding bullets of the correct diameter may be difficult. Smaller diameter bullets can be paper-patched and adapted.
- use a chronograph, not only for velocity readings but to check consistency of your loads

Of course in a second step smokeless can be tried. Data for "original" loads are either not to be found or they are useless anyway, because the old powders are not available any more. One has to establish new loads.
There are plenty of options, I am only pointing to a few (no details, because working these out is up to you):

- a reduced load of IMR4198 or H4198, 40% of the established BP weight, plus a filler, either Dacron wadding or some "foam rod" - note that there is plenty of discussion what is correct or not
- use of very bulky powders, omitting the filler - I like SR4759.
- "Trail Boss" may be another option

Again the chronograph is essential, stay with the blackpowder velocities.
You can compare available loading data for similar cartridges, in your case mabe .40-62 or .40-70
And there are other boards that are focussed on reloading, you might try here
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/ubbthreads.php?Cat=
or here
http://www.bpcr.net/index-a.htm

Regards,
fuhrmann

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#234517 - 07/05/11 11:39 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
James M Offline
Sidelock
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Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 7437
Loc: Arizona
fuhrmann:
Thank you for taking the time to provide such a detailed response.
I'll let everyone know how this progresses.
Jim
_________________________
The 2nd Amendment IS an unalienable right.

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#234611 - 07/05/11 11:28 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
steve white Offline
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Registered: 05/22/11
Posts: 738
How did it come to have a swing mount modern scope on it? Steve

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#234614 - 07/05/11 11:56 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
James M Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 7437
Loc: Arizona
Below is the very courteous reply I received from the Springer Company in regards to my rifle. I sent Margaret pictures by return email and also a link to this thread. I will let you know if I receive any more information.

Jim


Dear Sir, thank you so much for your inquiry on a double rifle number 4788 made in our house.
We are very much interested to receive pictures of this gun - please ! Unfortunately what concerns the past, we must confess that the book containing production number, date of production and date of sale, with name of customer containing numbers under 5000 have gut lost during WW2 and the Russian occupation in 1945. All guns bearing numbers above 5000 can be traced.
Upon the pictures however - and in compare to the guns we have in our museum - we would be able to tell the approx.years when your gun was produced. If there are
Initials, monogramm or crowns, there is an additional possibilty to tell for whom the gun was made.
So please let me have pictures and I will do what I can. With my best regards Margaret Weixelbraun, History Department of Joh.Springer's Erben, Wien


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The 2nd Amendment IS an unalienable right.

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#234796 - 07/07/11 03:36 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
eightbore Offline
Sidelock
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Registered: 02/20/02
Posts: 13144
Loc: Maryland
I was going to reread the Springer article in the Summer 1997 DGJ, but haven't quite gotten to it yet.

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#234802 - 07/07/11 03:49 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8835
Loc: North Alabama
Thanks for the heads-up Jim and I am pleasantly surprised of the quick response. Now we get an idea of what happened to the 1-5000 longarm ledger.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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