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#233083 - 06/22/11 04:20 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
montenegrin Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 1688
Loc: Slovenia
The loaded round looks like .303 British to me.

With kind regard,
Jani

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#233094 - 06/22/11 07:53 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
James M Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 7437
Loc: Arizona
I just miked this round and 303 British it is.
Thanks Jani
_________________________
The 2nd Amendment IS an unalienable right.

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#233140 - 06/22/11 03:53 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
pwm Offline
Sidelock

Registered: 01/08/04
Posts: 209
Loc: germany
hallo

what we know: is it a real 10mm /400 and it have a paper thin neck

there are very few 10mm cartridges in germany/austria. beside of the 10x60R 400 only some 10 mm target rounds bases on the 11,15 x60R mauser brass. there are maybe also other wildcats from this time I did not know but...
the paper thin brass case is typical for the early express rounds and the 10x60 R 400 comes from one. this is not a 450 basic case necked down. the 10,3x60R swiss is such a thing.
ok, the camber seems to be to short for a 60 mm long case but maybe it fits. old chambers are made different than we do it now. I have casting were the chamber ends with the case mouth. no free bore, nothing, the lead bullet engrave into the rifling when loaded.
I can only tell you what I would do: talking with cartridge collector for getting an original 10x60R 400 from Georg Roth and try to load it. I dont know if this is a problem for you, can only tell you that I would get it here in some days.


the 10x60R 400 was the only standard factory 10 mm cartridge and it was popular around the turn of the century

franz sodia ferlach




georg roth 1927
original bullet weight was around 250 grains. i think you will find something for the 10 mm auto


Edited by pwm (06/22/11 11:32 PM)

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#233144 - 06/22/11 04:51 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
James M Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 7437
Loc: Arizona
PWM
Again thanks for all your help. As I stated earlier there is no real definition to where the neck ends and it could very well be 60mm. Is there any possibility you could get me some empty brass in Germany in 10x60R400 and ship it to me? Loaded cartridges would be a problem to import but empty brass wouldn't be. I of course will gladly pay for this.
Jim
_________________________
The 2nd Amendment IS an unalienable right.

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#233154 - 06/22/11 06:46 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
m-4 Offline
Sidelock

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 158
Jim,
I would recommend that you contact Dave at CH4D and discuss your casting dimensions and see what he recommends or has on hand, he is a great source of knowledge on getting these fine old guns into service again. If nothing else he can tell you what it can be made from and make you custom dies while you continue to search the world for some originals.

M-4

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#233190 - 06/23/11 12:10 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: m-4]
pwm Offline
Sidelock

Registered: 01/08/04
Posts: 209
Loc: germany
the fact that the 10x60R 400 will be the cartridge that makes the most sense do not mean it must be right but I see no other possiblity now. there is a 10x52R and a 10x56R but this were target rounds made from 11,15 Mauser brass - 13 mm base diameter, 15 mm rim, 2,5mm rim thickness.

horneber does not list the 10x60R! he would make it but you have at least two years to wait.
if you cut try to load an original cartridge you would know for sure it works. find a collector round now for 50 euro here.
use the time and send the chamber cast to Dave at CH4D. let make you an offer for die set. Dave have seen a lot of thingsand he would give you good advise.

I would use 9,3x74r brass, reduce the base diameter on the late( its thick enough), cut it to 60 mmm
maybe rim thickness is a little bit to much, try it

I think that there are 10 mmm neck reamer on the market, the formed case have to be reamed out.

will come in when having more time this evening


Edited by pwm (06/23/11 12:11 AM)

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#233193 - 06/23/11 02:43 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: pwm]
fuhrmann Offline
Sidelock

Registered: 03/15/10
Posts: 121
Instead of using 9.3x74R cases, you might also start with .405 Winchester or .40-70 Sharps Straight. Base diameter of the .40-70 should fit nicely, no lathe turning needed.

True 10 mm bullets (app. .394) may be troublesome. In any case, the bore dimensions should be taken from a lead slug, I believe.

Defining the original cartridge is one thing, "for the books". But you do not need the original name to make the piece shooting again - all the information you need is in the rifle.

Have fun with this great rifle!
fuhrmann


Edited by fuhrmann (06/23/11 02:52 AM)

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#233207 - 06/23/11 09:01 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
James M Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 7437
Loc: Arizona
Thanks everyone for all the help. I had already been looking at 405 Winchester as a possibility. However 303 British is readily available and inexpensive. Perhaps I should consider fire forming these cases then trimming to size? I already have the bore dimensions as the front part of the chamber cast(see above).
Jim
_________________________
The 2nd Amendment IS an unalienable right.

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#233224 - 06/23/11 11:02 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
James M Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 7437
Loc: Arizona
www.writerbobshell.com


This guy is located in my area and maintains he re-loads obsolete ammo. Anyone know him or done business with him?
Jim
_________________________
The 2nd Amendment IS an unalienable right.

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#233240 - 06/23/11 12:08 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
pwm Offline
Sidelock

Registered: 01/08/04
Posts: 209
Loc: germany
you can start with necked up 303 brass. it would be around 55 mm long but thats ok with black powder. of course 405 Win brass , dont think about because 9,3x74R is easier to get here. try this guy http://www.writerbobshell.com/, he would have some die sets that can be used to form the brass till it fits into your chamber before you spend the money for a custum dié set. the brass have to be reamed out for 10 mm bullets and will be very thin after. good to have one who do it before.
I would start with 10mm /.40 pure lead bullets. the right weight for the 10x60R( if this rifle is chambered for this) was 16,1 gramm for a flat nose lead bullet and the rifle may be sighted for it.I dont see 10 mm moulds over 175 grain buts maybe a simple job for a craftsman to rework such a mould.


I dont believe in a "wildcat" cartridge, this double rifle was expensive and made for a man who dont need to reload his own ammo to save money. he had have enough money to shot factory made cartridges and in special it was a cartridge he can get everywhere not only in the springer's erben shop.
thinking it was the 10x60R 400


Edited by pwm (06/23/11 12:11 PM)

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