doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Classic & Custom Single Barreled Sporting Rifles @ doublegunshop.com Adventures with the .38-72 WCF

Several months ago I picked up a tired-on-the-outside but shiny-on-the-inside '95 Winchester in .38-72, not one of the hottest selling cartridges in the world, but having some experience with its smokeless near twin the British .375 2-1/2" Flanged it seemed an intriguing prospect.

I expected some of the usual neck/throat/groove diameter issues that many American BP lever guns have and I certainly wasn't disappointed. Groove diameter is right at .379" with the throat being a smidge larger, while the chamber neck even with very thin brass doesn't leave enough room for a bullet that diameter. American BP .38 rifle cartridges are typically this groove diameter or a bit larger. Same kind of thing has happened to me with several original .40-60 1881 Marlins and even a couple of older British BPEs using modern thick-walled brass.

I do like correctly headstamped brass when it's available, so I started with a score of Bertram cases. These were fairly uniform with neck walls averaging .011", thin enough, I hoped, to allow chambering of the .377" soft-jacketed Hawk bullets I figured to try first. Along with all this stuff I had ordered a set of RCBS .38-72 dies knowing that they would almost certainly be set up with .375" bullets in mind. The good news is that it is now possible to get 'cowboy' neck expander dies in .376" and .379" diameters; I got those too while I was at it.

The bad news was that the seating die wouldn't accept a .377" bullet. This was a surprise - usually the 'throat' of a typical seating die isn't as closely cut as that, at least with the bunches of dies for other calibers that I've used over the years to cobble together some fairly odd ammo. One way or another, though, I managed to get a few .377" bullets seated into those cases over a mild charge of 5744 for a first trial.

The rounds chambered without excess force but I was troubled after firing the first when the freshly fired case would not accept a .377" bullet easily. This told me that even with .011" neck walls there was not enough clearance in the chamber on firing to allow the bullet to release well. Not good. Often in this situation I might think about neck reaming to thin the walls more, but at .011" they're already pretty thin and getting a reamer or outside turner for that odd diameter wasn't going to be simple.

I usually don't figure that modern jacketed bullets over smokeless powders will "bump up" to fill oversize grooves like lead bullets over BP will do, but the folks at Hawk were confident that in this situation it just might work. Seemed simple enough to try.

Well, to wind up this long-winded post, I got some of their 235 grain .375" diameter bullets which fit both the dies and chamber well and on my first try at a load proceeded to make an inch group at 50 yards using old eyes and older iron sights. Not bad. .375" bullets slid in and out of the fired cases just fine. Heck, the rounds even fed nicely out of the '95 box magazine which the usual .38 rifle flat point won't do so well. It may not be a lion load like Teddy's .405 '95 but it ought to be a peach to keep the pot filled on any continent...

Steve,

Great report, it's nice when you getting something to work right.

I shoot some bore diameter jacketed bullets and they are groove diameter by the time they leave the barrel. Smokeless will upset both jacketed and lead bullets just fine.

I bought some of the Hornady .405 brass and sent it to a fellow who has .38-72 dies and he ran it through for me. I don't need to re-size because I breech seat my .38-72 but the Hornady brass is good stuff. If you want to try a few let me know and I'll send some down.

Steve, does your M95 have an octagon barrel? I think only the black powder calibers, .38-72 & .40-72 were offered with an octagon barrel.

Can you post pictures of it?

My only comment regarding Hawk bullets for putting game in the pot is that bullet failure happens. Test them well before using them on game. I experience horrible failures with at very modest velocities and using the .025 jackets they recommended. It is a shame too as they are very accurate out of my gun, a .360 bpe Alex Henry double. My next attempt with that gun will be paper patched cast bullets.

Michael - thanks for the offer, I have a few .405 cases left over from another project that I was going to cobble up if the Bertrams proved iffy. We'll see.

Don - yes it's a 26" octagonal barrel. I'll post a picture or two when I find my camera again...

SKB - that's certainly not good news about bullet failure on game, 'specially with a .360 BPE which is not a barn burner in the velocity department either. The ones I tried were also .025 jackets and light weight at 235 grains but I had figured to go for .030 jackets and either 270 or 300 grain for hunting. I will definitely test them first now. Thanks for the heads up!

"'specially with a .360 BPE which is not a barn burner in the velocity department either"

well mine is not the standard 2&1/4" variety, its a magnum....2&7/16" case......those 3/16" really make a difference! Just kidding on the magnum thing, but it really is a 2&7/16" chambered gun. An Alex Henry specialty.

I have never used Hawk bullets but I have messed about with bullets made of copper tubing and have had them come apart. An economical test is to use a propane torch to melt the cores of a few test bullets, then let them cool in the air. The melting process may well solder the core to the inside of the bullet jacket. If the test bullets stay together after impact, you may have a cheap fix.