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#232571 - 06/16/11 01:01 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
James M Offline
Sidelock
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Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 7437
Loc: Arizona
Additional Springer pictures;
Jim


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#232576 - 06/16/11 01:39 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
Sidelock
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Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8646
Loc: North Alabama
Jim, any marks on the tubes forward of the Lefaucheux lugs?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#232584 - 06/16/11 03:44 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
James M Offline
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Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 7437
Loc: Arizona
None that I can see Raimey. Unless they're under the forend.
Regards
Jim
_________________________
The 2nd Amendment IS an unalienable right.

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#232588 - 06/16/11 04:29 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
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Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8646
Loc: North Alabama
Yeah, have a gander under the forend. Odd that there aren't any on the flats. If it is devoid of any Belgian proofmarks, then that brings on more talk.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#232591 - 06/16/11 04:57 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: ellenbr]
kuduae Offline
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Registered: 01/02/11
Posts: 246
Originally Posted By: ellenbr
There doesn't appear to be a serial number nor a patent number associated with the forend attachment, unless the T handle is really worn. I wonder who Auguste Francotte's frame source or frame filer might have been.

Did not the use of rebounding hammers commence circa 1867?


This foreend/barrels/ action arrangement was already described in the book by Zimmer, "Die Jagd-Feuer-Gewehre", 2nd edition 1877, page 145, as "Variation III of the Lefaucheux action". No patent or maker mentioned.
Though J.Stanton, lockmaker of Wolverhampton, patented rebounding locks in 1867, they did not come into general use immediately, especially not on rifles. Due to the higher pressure of BP express rifles, compared to BP shotguns, and the then often weak primer cups, primers tended to flow back into the firing pin holes of rebounding firing pins and blow out or bind the action. Even Stanto himself continuedto make non-rebouding locks for express rifles. FI my .500 3" BPE hammer dr, Sold by John Rigby to a Mr.Heath in 1870, has non-rebounding locks signed by J.Stanton on the inside. Nor has my Birmingham made .500-.450 #1 BPE dr, dating to about 1880 rebounding locks.
BTW, the "LK" and "Gruendig" cartridges, though similar at first glance, were not "parallel developments". The LK numbers were black powder, lead bullet cartridges from the start, only post-1900 loaded as "nitro for black" with soft copper-jacketed bullets. The "G" cartridges were full Nitro, loaded with much heavier steel-jacketed bullets from the start, introduced post-1900.

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#232592 - 06/16/11 05:04 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
Sidelock
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Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8646
Loc: North Alabama
Well, thank you Axel for the insight. Lancaster & I were comparing the Springer Marine & the Gründig cartridges due to the fact that the 10,75X52R was mentioned earlier. I don't think either of us thinks the cartridge to be anything related to semi-smokeless.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#232595 - 06/16/11 05:24 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
James M Offline
Sidelock
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Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 7437
Loc: Arizona
Ok Raimey:
I removed the forend and after cleaning away God knows how long an accumulation of grime I found the following:

1081.02.9.6

Note: The dot between the 9 and the 6 is actually at the top but I've no way of typing this.

Another point:
The contour of the barrels on the underside actually follows the outline of the forend.
I can post another picture if necessary.
Regards
Jim
_________________________
The 2nd Amendment IS an unalienable right.

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#232597 - 06/16/11 05:27 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8646
Loc: North Alabama
Well, if that is a datastring, it sure blows my guess of a date out of the water. It would be #1081 in 1902 with a pre-rifling diameter of 9.6mm. What is the diameter at the muzzle? Maybe it was a later pass thru the proofhouse after some alteration??? If it notes a 2nd pass it should be the diameter of the tube. Any Belgian marks of which to speak????

Franz Denk may have pushed it thru at a later date, using some old components from Johann Springer??? Possibly a rebarrel???? Is there a "4788" on the tubeset anywhere? A check with the Vienna proofhouse with the datastring might yield some info.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#232599 - 06/16/11 05:49 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
montenegrin Offline
Sidelock
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Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 1678
Loc: Slovenia
"Jani:
I'm afraid I don't understand your post."

Jim,
I was just trying to explain the missing ...... from the Dorotheum catalog description above (from Raimey's post). There is obviously something missing betwenn K.u. and LITÄR, or they would not write a number of commas therein; probably damaged inscription in one way or another. Also, as far as I know, "LITÄR" alone does not have a meaning in German (but my German is quite limited). So my speculation was that the missing letters are MI. MI plus LITÄR gives MILITÄR, meaning military. Therefore in my speculation the last part of the inscription is MILITÄR SCHIESSSTÄTTE, meaning Military Shooting Range.
I do hope that I made myself clear now.
With kind regards,
Jani


Edited by montenegrin (06/16/11 06:22 PM)
Edit Reason: clarification

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#232601 - 06/16/11 05:59 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
James M Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 7437
Loc: Arizona
Raimey:
I used a micrometer and came up with just a shade under 11mm at the muzzle.
There are no other markings that I can find on the tubes except the F Denk and the numbers under the forearm which I posted above. I will be doing a chamber cast in the gunsmithing department of my club on next Tuesday and I will post the results.
Regards
Jim
_________________________
The 2nd Amendment IS an unalienable right.

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