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#232324 - 06/14/11 10:19 AM Joh Springer in Wein
James M Offline
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I walked into an estate sale(actually it turned out to be a divorce situation) on Saturday not expecting much but I asked if there was anything hunting related. The lady told me there was an old gun in the corner. The price quoted seemed very reasonable so it went home with me. I don't think I really realized what I had bought until I got home. I can now tell you all I love divorce sales!
This rifle is in excellent mechanical and cosmetic condition and still locks up like the proverbial bank vault. I have an email inquirery into the Springer Company which is still in business but no longer manufactures firearms. I suspect the caliber is their proprietary 10.75x52R but I'm waiting to hear back.
The rifle is numbered "No 4788" on the buttplate(not pictured) as well as elsewhere. It is also marked "ARVAUDB II 7740" on the underside as can be seen in picture #8. There is also a pop up sight located in the upper tang.
Any information anyone can provide will be greatly appreciated.
Jim

Update: I just found barrel markings.The barrel are marked on top "F Denk(L) in Wien(R)" so apparently the barrel maker is different then the gun maker.











Edited by italiansxs (06/14/11 06:20 PM)
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#232385 - 06/14/11 10:23 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
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Franz Denk most likely was the firearms merchant here. He's sort of an obscure Austrian maker and usually didn't peddle any junk. I'm interested to see what Springer's Erben has to offer as 5000 is considered pretty much when time began with Springer's Erben serialization and most give circa 1870. So if the serial number is less that 5k then it was made prior to 1870??? I'd guess it was made in the 1870s and the tubes steel looks to be cast or fluid steel. Any marks there? Also I've seen several doubles with that unique barrel latch with "ARVAUD Bte." I can't recall what the correct spelling is but check it with a glass. Maybe PeteM can recall. The device may have been a holdover from the pinfire era. I have a close-up image of the stamp somewhere and have been chasing that advancement as well as the number assigned to it on each weapon. It's a T handle, just pull it forward toward the muzzle and the tubes should release. He doesn't appear to taunt the K & K Kammer-Lieferanten title, which was awarded/purchased in 1872. Johann Springer was born in 1819 in Leutschau/Löcse, Hungary. In 1840 he caught a cart out to Vienna. So the weapon may have been made between 1870 & 1872/73.

I thought the 10.75X52R Springer Marine was developed toward the end of the 19th century? But a chamber cast and some measurements will reveal the cartridge.

Interesting soap opera on the Mathais Nowonty & Johann Springer relationship. More than likely, Johann Springer was an apprentice at Mathais Nowotny's shop. Mathais Nowotny was born in Leitmertz(Litomerice) in Bohemia. In 1838(1836??) he moved to Vienna and I bet Johann Springer was on his walkabout. In 1847 Johann Springer married the sister of Mathais Nowotny. Then in 1852 Springer leased Mathais Nowotny's shop, or some portion thereof, while Mathais Nowotny built a small weapons making facility and acquired the proper permits. Mathais Nowotny was a maker to one of the courts by this time. Some love triangle developed and Mathais Nowotny(Novotny) couldn't accept or deal with it, so he commited suicide in 1857. Shortly after the self inflicted mortal bullet wound, Mathais Nowotny's widow sold the business and the small weapons factory to brother-in-law Springer.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#232390 - 06/14/11 11:38 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: ellenbr]
pwm Offline
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interesting double rifle but I doubt that this a 10,75x52R. it looks much to early for this round. I search a little bit about this cartridge and have a sporting rifle projekt with a Mannlicher M 95 action. a new chamber reamer will be made this year when my die set arive from ch4d.
I dont see a neck in your pic but it could probably be the 11,2x52R kropatchek or the 11,5x60R 450.
waiting to hear the dimensions from a chamber cast.


Edited by pwm (06/14/11 11:39 PM)

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#232394 - 06/14/11 11:55 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
danross70 Offline
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What a neat find! how does it lock up? Like a Jones Underlever with a different crank? Or is there only one horizontal locking arm (Jones has 2, is T shaped)?

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#232412 - 06/15/11 07:18 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
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The system is that of Lefaucheux with an added barrel lock.

Wikipedia is Johnny on the spot with a German language version of the history of Johann Springer. Here's a forced translation from http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joh._Springer%E2%80%99s_Erben (copy & paste) :

"The company history extends back to the 1830s. At that time, let the gunsmith Mathias Nowotny from Hradec Kralove down in Vienna. In 1836 he was authorized to practice his profession. He quickly became successful and was able to find the shop in the Josefstadt a branch on the vine-im-Eisen-Platz 5 in the 1st District building. In 1856 he shot himself, however, and his widow sold a year later the business to John Springer.
John Springer was from Leutschach in Upper Hungary, and came as an engraver to Vienna. He mastered the art of the arms of the noble metal engraving in fine customers. He also learned the gunsmith and later married Catherine Nowotny, the sister of Mathias Nowotny. Springer worked for 15 years Nowotny, whose confidence he enjoyed. After the death of Nowotny and the takeover of the company, in 1857 he changed the company name to "John Springer, formerly Mathias Nowotny" around.
He specialized in the production of luxury hunting weapons , and won by the quality of the products several medals at exhibitions. The Emperor was one of the regulars and 1872 gave him this title imperial chamber , a higher markup than the Hoflieferantentitel.
John Springer died in 1875 and his widow had to run the company while seven children are concerned. The sons and Gustav Rudolf Springer completed their training as part of the company Brandlín in Birmingham, later took over the company in 1888 and changed the name to "Johann Springer's Erben. In the same year had the old house on a stick-in-place iron Springer leave as it is for the new Palais Equitable should be demolished.
The brothers Rudolf and Gustav Springer could establish the factory on. The products were awarded the Golden Austrian State Prize and other awards at international exhibitions like the 1908 Grand Prix of Monte Carlo. In the 1930s, Springer was appointed royal purveyors of Monaco.
The kuk Hoflieferantentitel was again awarded 1911th In addition to the emperor and the imperial court as Archduke Franz Ferdinand and Archduchess Maria Theresa, the company had with its customers many noble families, including Liechtenstein , Esterházy , Coburg and Orlowski . Business was good and in 1912 the company had one million gold crowns over debts. Springer had his own factory and display at the Joseph Lane 10 in the 8th District and three local sale in Vienna, including the Stock-im-Eisen Platz 5 in under 1 District and Mariahilf. The branch on the 1st District later moved to the address pit 10 around.
The First World War and the collapse of the monarchy brought the company on hard times. During the Second World War the company had to include parts for the V2 weapons manufacturers.
After the second world war were to continue to produce guns. Customers have included Soviet Marshal Konev, General Kaltschenko, allied officers and big-game hunter Ernst twin . In 1949, Johann Springer's daughter Margaret's business. The weapons production had to be finally set in December 1955. The trade in weapons remained a line of business, with industrial customers were like. However, the debt grew and in 1958 had the heiress of the family estate and the factory, sell it to stabilize the finances.
On 1 April 2008, Christian Johann Springer's company of his mother Margaret Weixelbraun. On Kagranerplatz eight branch was extended: it now leads hunting and sporting weapons, military, pistols and reloading products to 370 square feet. The former stores the trench 10 and the Habsburg lane 8 were transferred to the Weihburggasse 27. At 700 square feet on three floors hunting weapons are new or used available. In addition to the traditional segment of arms for hunting and sporting weapons, military, pistols and reloading products, the company is expanding into other areas and has been autumn hunting trips and weapons auctions in 2008."

Very interesting how there seems to be such a talent pool in Hungary. I think Feodor Osipovitch Matska was born in Hungary or in the Bohemian region. The students learn their craft and the head to where the money is at the center of the Austro-Hungarian empire, which really formed just prior to the making of this example, circa 1867, but still Wien a top spot for separating the elite from their funds.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#232420 - 06/15/11 08:59 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
James M Offline
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I've just miked the barrels and I'm getting just under 11mm at the bore and just under 12mm at the chamber end. I will bring the rifle to my club and do a chamber cast. The barrels are definitely fluid steet. I can't seem to figure out how to unlatch them from the frame as nothing seems to move after I break the gun open. Any ideas?
Jim
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#232423 - 06/15/11 09:20 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
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Jim:
It has something like a ball detent where the "T" lever snaps into place. With the weapon on its back/top and facing the stock, pull the top of the "T" handle up and folding toward the muzzle until the "T" handle is perpendicular to the tubeset. I'm still searching for an image of the device.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#232429 - 06/15/11 10:18 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
pwm Offline
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I think the 10,75x52R spinger was created after 1904 because dont know it better till now. all top levers so your rifle is looking much older for my taste but we will see.
thats how doubles and singles have look in the 1914 catalog



1924 springer catalog

a single shot hammer rifle like shown into this catalog, was a 8mm caliber iirc



I got this drawing from Harald Wolf in belgium last year. 15 years ago he was making a lot of ammo for an older gentlman who was dieing before the order came to an end. this order was very official including CIP proof for the ammo in Liege.


9,3x53R Sako 10,75x52R Springer 10,75x57 10,75x68


custum loaded ammo from Samereier in Germany for a 10,75 Springer double rifle with the old components from Harald Wolf

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#232432 - 06/15/11 10:53 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
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pwm:
Nice bit of info. Yeah, the round could have been developed between 1900 & 1910 and may have paralled the Gründig version?



I finally found what I was searching for: AR. ANO Bte are the letters, or something of the sort, and may have been common on early Auguste Francottes. I can't tell if the controller's stamps are crowned or spangled. But Johann Springer was sourcing Auguste Francotte for weapons, weapons in the white or parts kits/tube sets. Then Franz Denk was sourcing Johann Springer. The following is similar and touts the k.u.k appointment( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_and_Royal - http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post204070 ) so it would have been made during or after 1872.











Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#232435 - 06/15/11 11:18 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
James M Offline
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Raimey:
Please look at my next to last picture posted above. I have tried lifting up on the "T" end of the piece(where the lettering is located) and also the other round end and nothing moves. I don't like forcing things so I'm waiting for further direction from you.
Jim
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#232436 - 06/15/11 11:25 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
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Maybe some lubricant as they are tough to convince to motion. Sometimes the device is seen on weapons with multi-tubesets but changing would seem to be slow. The bar of the "T" in the circular hole is supposed to drop in the well so maybe a small amount of downward force there while the top of the "T" will be perpendicular to the tubeset. But when the "T" bar comes into battery, it is a snap and a pretty tight fit.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#232438 - 06/15/11 12:11 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: ellenbr]
pwm Offline
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Originally Posted By: ellenbr
pwm:
Nice bit of info. Yeah, the round could have been developed between 1900 & 1910 and may have paralled the Gründig version?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


yes, amazing paralell to the 10,75x52 R Gründig, in any case a full power nitro cartridge you will find in a strong break action only. Harald wolf had told me that the Springer Double Rifle he had in his hands was made from Francotte. I dont had such a DR in my hands till now but with a little bit more time I can probably find the gentleman the custum ammo was made for.
started a research on nitroexpress once to learn more about this cartridge, someone may know it
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=147203&an=0&page=0#Post147203

"I've just miked the barrels and I'm getting just under 11mm at the bore and just under 12mm at the chamber end."

sounds more like a 11,15x52R LK to me, 11mm barrel diameter is small but we will see what sluging and chamber casting will show

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#232440 - 06/15/11 12:18 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
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LK, that has been a hot topic as of late. Finding another J. Springer/A. Francotte would be just lovely, specifically if it has the unique wood to tubeset latch. Are we sure of the chamber length, 52mm?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#232444 - 06/15/11 01:07 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: ellenbr]
James M Offline
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Raimey:
I sprayed some Gunscrubber around the tee piece and then tried tapping on the round end with a piece of dowel and a hammer. It finally opened!! I think the main problem was congealed grease. It's probably been a long while since this gun was last maintained.
I really appreciate the help and information I'm getting here. After I do a chamber cast I'd like to try and round up some ammunition. This gun is too nice not to shoot. I'll take and post some pictures as soon as I can.
Regards
Jim
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#232445 - 06/15/11 01:17 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
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Yeaaaaaaaahhhhhhh, pleasure us with some images of the marks and of the device itself. Like I said, the device just doesn't like to conform to motion.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#232446 - 06/15/11 01:49 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
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I wonder if Franz Denk of Wien peddled clocks also or was it possibly his father: http://www.artnet.com/artwork/426055449/...aterndluhr.html

It must have been his father, or relative, who just may have been a master clock maker( Bürgerlicher Uhrmacher? ) from 1795 to the mid 1820s. Most of the clocks with Franz Denk's name are in the 1820s.

An interesting stamp atop this Franz Denk of Wien peddled example:
"FRANZ DENK IN WIEN K. u. K. .... LITÄR SCHIESSSTÄTTE"(his shooting grounds or school???)

http://www.dorotheum.com/en/auction-deta...-denk-wien.html

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#232497 - 06/15/11 08:09 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
montenegrin Offline
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...LITÄR ... MILITÄR? so maybe Military Shooting Range?

With kind regards,
Jani

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#232504 - 06/15/11 09:08 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: montenegrin]
James M Offline
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Jani:
I'm afraid I don't understand your post.
Jim
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#232507 - 06/15/11 09:28 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
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Jani:
I assume they can read German and the phrase to be: "LITÄR SCHIESSSTÄTTE" as listed. Maybe Franz Denk had a firing range?? But I had not known that Franz Denk to receive a royal warrant, nor have I seem him listed yet.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#232555 - 06/16/11 08:54 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
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Geno:

I noticed that credit was attributed to you for the early Auguste Francotte images of a double. Do you know if it was from the mid 1860s? There doesn't appear to be a serial number nor a patent number associated with the forend attachment, unless the T handle is really worn. I wonder who Auguste Francotte's frame source or frame filer might have been.

Did not the use of rebounding hammers commence circa 1867?

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/art...chasse%20gb.htm







Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#232571 - 06/16/11 01:01 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
James M Offline
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Additional Springer pictures;
Jim


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#232576 - 06/16/11 01:39 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
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Jim, any marks on the tubes forward of the Lefaucheux lugs?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#232584 - 06/16/11 03:44 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
James M Offline
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None that I can see Raimey. Unless they're under the forend.
Regards
Jim
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#232588 - 06/16/11 04:29 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
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Yeah, have a gander under the forend. Odd that there aren't any on the flats. If it is devoid of any Belgian proofmarks, then that brings on more talk.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#232591 - 06/16/11 04:57 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: ellenbr]
kuduae Offline
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Originally Posted By: ellenbr
There doesn't appear to be a serial number nor a patent number associated with the forend attachment, unless the T handle is really worn. I wonder who Auguste Francotte's frame source or frame filer might have been.

Did not the use of rebounding hammers commence circa 1867?


This foreend/barrels/ action arrangement was already described in the book by Zimmer, "Die Jagd-Feuer-Gewehre", 2nd edition 1877, page 145, as "Variation III of the Lefaucheux action". No patent or maker mentioned.
Though J.Stanton, lockmaker of Wolverhampton, patented rebounding locks in 1867, they did not come into general use immediately, especially not on rifles. Due to the higher pressure of BP express rifles, compared to BP shotguns, and the then often weak primer cups, primers tended to flow back into the firing pin holes of rebounding firing pins and blow out or bind the action. Even Stanto himself continuedto make non-rebouding locks for express rifles. FI my .500 3" BPE hammer dr, Sold by John Rigby to a Mr.Heath in 1870, has non-rebounding locks signed by J.Stanton on the inside. Nor has my Birmingham made .500-.450 #1 BPE dr, dating to about 1880 rebounding locks.
BTW, the "LK" and "Gruendig" cartridges, though similar at first glance, were not "parallel developments". The LK numbers were black powder, lead bullet cartridges from the start, only post-1900 loaded as "nitro for black" with soft copper-jacketed bullets. The "G" cartridges were full Nitro, loaded with much heavier steel-jacketed bullets from the start, introduced post-1900.

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#232592 - 06/16/11 05:04 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
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Well, thank you Axel for the insight. Lancaster & I were comparing the Springer Marine & the Gründig cartridges due to the fact that the 10,75X52R was mentioned earlier. I don't think either of us thinks the cartridge to be anything related to semi-smokeless.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#232595 - 06/16/11 05:24 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
James M Offline
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Ok Raimey:
I removed the forend and after cleaning away God knows how long an accumulation of grime I found the following:

1081.02.9.6

Note: The dot between the 9 and the 6 is actually at the top but I've no way of typing this.

Another point:
The contour of the barrels on the underside actually follows the outline of the forend.
I can post another picture if necessary.
Regards
Jim
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#232597 - 06/16/11 05:27 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
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Well, if that is a datastring, it sure blows my guess of a date out of the water. It would be #1081 in 1902 with a pre-rifling diameter of 9.6mm. What is the diameter at the muzzle? Maybe it was a later pass thru the proofhouse after some alteration??? If it notes a 2nd pass it should be the diameter of the tube. Any Belgian marks of which to speak????

Franz Denk may have pushed it thru at a later date, using some old components from Johann Springer??? Possibly a rebarrel???? Is there a "4788" on the tubeset anywhere? A check with the Vienna proofhouse with the datastring might yield some info.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#232599 - 06/16/11 05:49 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
montenegrin Offline
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"Jani:
I'm afraid I don't understand your post."

Jim,
I was just trying to explain the missing ...... from the Dorotheum catalog description above (from Raimey's post). There is obviously something missing betwenn K.u. and LITÄR, or they would not write a number of commas therein; probably damaged inscription in one way or another. Also, as far as I know, "LITÄR" alone does not have a meaning in German (but my German is quite limited). So my speculation was that the missing letters are MI. MI plus LITÄR gives MILITÄR, meaning military. Therefore in my speculation the last part of the inscription is MILITÄR SCHIESSSTÄTTE, meaning Military Shooting Range.
I do hope that I made myself clear now.
With kind regards,
Jani


Edited by montenegrin (06/16/11 06:22 PM)
Edit Reason: clarification

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#232601 - 06/16/11 05:59 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
James M Offline
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Raimey:
I used a micrometer and came up with just a shade under 11mm at the muzzle.
There are no other markings that I can find on the tubes except the F Denk and the numbers under the forearm which I posted above. I will be doing a chamber cast in the gunsmithing department of my club on next Tuesday and I will post the results.
Regards
Jim
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#232620 - 06/16/11 08:20 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
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Ah, Jani now I see the light. Those missing letters are like zeros. They don't seem to have much meaning until you stack them side by side.

Jim:
I'm going to say that you have a longarm that the owner, who was possibly a client of Franz Denk, went to Frank Denk and requested a rebarrel and that would make the Lefaucheux Variant III mate with the 10,75X52R. If the longarm experienced some kind of proof in 1902 and it is chambered for the 10,75X52R Springer Marine that might also narrow the initial date for the cartridge. Any chance you could post an image of the datastring?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#232633 - 06/16/11 09:12 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
James M Offline
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Per your request Raimey.
Please note that a picture is sometimes better that a magnifing glass. It is 1031 NOT 1081 as I previously reported.
Jim




Edited by italiansxs (06/16/11 09:14 PM)
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#232677 - 06/17/11 07:13 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
fuhrmann Online   content
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Registered: 03/15/10
Posts: 120
Jim,

this is the number given by the proof house, first guess is Vienna.
1031 consecutive number
02 year 1902
9'6 app. groove diameter

more proof marks should be seen somewhere in the breech area

fuhrmann

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#232685 - 06/17/11 08:25 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
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Typically the datastring for the preliminary pass is on the lower rib and the final pass is on the tubes just forward of the flats. The span from 9.6mm to approx. 11mm is a bit of a stretch from the preliminary to the final, but is possible. The Franz Denk example appears to be devoid of the final pass marks, weight of tubeset in grams on the lower rib, along with the stamp noting Nitro powder exposure. Thanks Jim for the effort.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#232689 - 06/17/11 09:10 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
James M Offline
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I just remiked the barrels at the muzzle. and I'm now getting right around 10mm(40 cal). Either the mike was slightly off on the first reading or it's my tired old eyes.
Again I should know more after a chamber cast next week.
I am also going to have to put a value on this gun for insurance purposes. What are your recommendations?
Jim


Edited by italiansxs (06/17/11 02:20 PM)
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#232749 - 06/18/11 12:16 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
pwm Offline
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with the things we are knowing now I would say its an older blackpowder cartridge similar to 45/70 loaded with BP and a bullet not heavier than 300 grain. a possible cartridge could be the 10x60R 400 if the chamber is long enough. this is a shorter version of the 400 BPE 3" Purdey and was popular around the turn of the century in austria.
BP cartridges may affect the value as a hunting rifle, practical and economical in the real world. in any case you have to load your ammo with a custom die set and make your own brass. but its a nice double rifle for sure.
a chamber cast will show it

its hard to judge such a double rifle because they are allways rare and unique. in germany it will be go in the 2000 -3000 euro range in an auction


Edited by pwm (06/18/11 12:28 AM)

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#233028 - 06/21/11 04:13 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
James M Offline
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Here is the chamber cast I made this morning of the Springer rifle


Here are the dimensions:
Overall case length 56mm the end of the case isnt clear but we used the black dot as the likely length.
Rim of case to start of rifling 63mm
Rim diameter 14mm
case diameter at breech 11.5mm
case mouth diameter 10.25mm
bore lands 10mm
bore grooves 9.75mm

This is a round with a slight taper from the breech to mouth end and no neck like the Springer 11.75x52R round.
I've tried to be as accurate as possible here but there may be slight variances in these measurments.
BTW: The gunsmiths stated and I agree that the rifling is of the gain twist variety.


Edited by italiansxs (06/21/11 04:22 PM)
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#233039 - 06/21/11 05:36 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
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Conjures up images of the 10X55R Sauer, if such a bird existed, but I think the rim was a bit larger. I like Lancaster's blind guess but I couldn't say what the rim diameter might be. If it is the 10X60R Hunting or 400 Express, we may have a match:

Case: 60mm
Rim: 13.95mm
Base: 11.35
but it does have a neck of 10.6mm

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#233044 - 06/21/11 06:30 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: ellenbr]
James M Offline
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Raimey:
The case length is kind of the key here and I can't tell for sure just looking at the casting where the neck ends and free bore begins and neither could the two gunsmiths I work with. It could very easily match the dimensions you've posted above but I don't know how to tell.
Jim
The 400 Express is a necked down 450 so that isn't it. I can find virtually no information on the 10x60R.

In rummaging around thru loose cartridges I found this dead example that's a perfect fit at the base.
However it military marked and I don't know the caliber. I'm wondering if it could be trimmed and blown out(fire formed) for reloading once identified?



Edited by italiansxs (06/21/11 07:04 PM)
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#233053 - 06/21/11 08:24 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
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It must be some variant of the 10x60R which was strongly based on the 400 2.5" Kynoch but may have been a wee-bit shorter. Maybe Lancaster will awake a little later and know the answer.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#233083 - 06/22/11 04:20 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
montenegrin Offline
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The loaded round looks like .303 British to me.

With kind regard,
Jani

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#233094 - 06/22/11 07:53 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
James M Offline
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I just miked this round and 303 British it is.
Thanks Jani
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#233140 - 06/22/11 03:53 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
pwm Offline
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hallo

what we know: is it a real 10mm /400 and it have a paper thin neck

there are very few 10mm cartridges in germany/austria. beside of the 10x60R 400 only some 10 mm target rounds bases on the 11,15 x60R mauser brass. there are maybe also other wildcats from this time I did not know but...
the paper thin brass case is typical for the early express rounds and the 10x60 R 400 comes from one. this is not a 450 basic case necked down. the 10,3x60R swiss is such a thing.
ok, the camber seems to be to short for a 60 mm long case but maybe it fits. old chambers are made different than we do it now. I have casting were the chamber ends with the case mouth. no free bore, nothing, the lead bullet engrave into the rifling when loaded.
I can only tell you what I would do: talking with cartridge collector for getting an original 10x60R 400 from Georg Roth and try to load it. I dont know if this is a problem for you, can only tell you that I would get it here in some days.


the 10x60R 400 was the only standard factory 10 mm cartridge and it was popular around the turn of the century

franz sodia ferlach




georg roth 1927
original bullet weight was around 250 grains. i think you will find something for the 10 mm auto


Edited by pwm (06/22/11 11:32 PM)

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#233144 - 06/22/11 04:51 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
James M Offline
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PWM
Again thanks for all your help. As I stated earlier there is no real definition to where the neck ends and it could very well be 60mm. Is there any possibility you could get me some empty brass in Germany in 10x60R400 and ship it to me? Loaded cartridges would be a problem to import but empty brass wouldn't be. I of course will gladly pay for this.
Jim
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#233154 - 06/22/11 06:46 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
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Jim,
I would recommend that you contact Dave at CH4D and discuss your casting dimensions and see what he recommends or has on hand, he is a great source of knowledge on getting these fine old guns into service again. If nothing else he can tell you what it can be made from and make you custom dies while you continue to search the world for some originals.

M-4

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#233190 - 06/23/11 12:10 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: m-4]
pwm Offline
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the fact that the 10x60R 400 will be the cartridge that makes the most sense do not mean it must be right but I see no other possiblity now. there is a 10x52R and a 10x56R but this were target rounds made from 11,15 Mauser brass - 13 mm base diameter, 15 mm rim, 2,5mm rim thickness.

horneber does not list the 10x60R! he would make it but you have at least two years to wait.
if you cut try to load an original cartridge you would know for sure it works. find a collector round now for 50 euro here.
use the time and send the chamber cast to Dave at CH4D. let make you an offer for die set. Dave have seen a lot of thingsand he would give you good advise.

I would use 9,3x74r brass, reduce the base diameter on the late( its thick enough), cut it to 60 mmm
maybe rim thickness is a little bit to much, try it

I think that there are 10 mmm neck reamer on the market, the formed case have to be reamed out.

will come in when having more time this evening


Edited by pwm (06/23/11 12:11 AM)

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#233193 - 06/23/11 02:43 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: pwm]
fuhrmann Online   content
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Instead of using 9.3x74R cases, you might also start with .405 Winchester or .40-70 Sharps Straight. Base diameter of the .40-70 should fit nicely, no lathe turning needed.

True 10 mm bullets (app. .394) may be troublesome. In any case, the bore dimensions should be taken from a lead slug, I believe.

Defining the original cartridge is one thing, "for the books". But you do not need the original name to make the piece shooting again - all the information you need is in the rifle.

Have fun with this great rifle!
fuhrmann


Edited by fuhrmann (06/23/11 02:52 AM)

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#233207 - 06/23/11 09:01 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
James M Offline
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Thanks everyone for all the help. I had already been looking at 405 Winchester as a possibility. However 303 British is readily available and inexpensive. Perhaps I should consider fire forming these cases then trimming to size? I already have the bore dimensions as the front part of the chamber cast(see above).
Jim
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#233224 - 06/23/11 11:02 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
James M Offline
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www.writerbobshell.com


This guy is located in my area and maintains he re-loads obsolete ammo. Anyone know him or done business with him?
Jim
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#233240 - 06/23/11 12:08 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
pwm Offline
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you can start with necked up 303 brass. it would be around 55 mm long but thats ok with black powder. of course 405 Win brass , dont think about because 9,3x74R is easier to get here. try this guy http://www.writerbobshell.com/, he would have some die sets that can be used to form the brass till it fits into your chamber before you spend the money for a custum dié set. the brass have to be reamed out for 10 mm bullets and will be very thin after. good to have one who do it before.
I would start with 10mm /.40 pure lead bullets. the right weight for the 10x60R( if this rifle is chambered for this) was 16,1 gramm for a flat nose lead bullet and the rifle may be sighted for it.I dont see 10 mm moulds over 175 grain buts maybe a simple job for a craftsman to rework such a mould.


I dont believe in a "wildcat" cartridge, this double rifle was expensive and made for a man who dont need to reload his own ammo to save money. he had have enough money to shot factory made cartridges and in special it was a cartridge he can get everywhere not only in the springer's erben shop.
thinking it was the 10x60R 400


Edited by pwm (06/23/11 12:11 PM)

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#233633 - 06/27/11 10:40 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
James M Offline
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From the scant information I can find about this cartridge; it apparentely was originally loaded as a black powder round then converted to nitro powder. Does anyone have any loading data for the 10x60R 400 Express?
http://www.municion.org/10/10x60R.htm
Jim
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#233909 - 06/29/11 03:16 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
pwm Offline
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this site is usualy good but completly wrong here
10x60 R Express/ .450-.400 Express 2-3/8" / .400 Express / DWM 76 / DWM 96 / GR 127

DWM 96 / GR 127 is the 11,6x60R 450 express, short version of the 450 BPE 3,25"

.450-.400 Express 2-3/8" , british mother of the 10,3x60R Swiss

.400 Express, common designation for the long Purdey round


10x60 R Express, 10x60R 400Expess would be the right designation but the measurments on this site are for the 11,6x60R 450


I dont see till now another maker and it seems that the 10x60R 400 was only made from Georg Roth in Austria

case number GR 143
bullet number 589

the fact that was ever made with the lead bullet makes it clear for me that this was only loaded with black powder. production of this round may stop with the outbreak of WW 2 in 1939 for ever but it was a very obsolete cartridge in this time also.


you see here 11,6x60R 450 cartridges




Edited by pwm (06/29/11 03:24 PM)

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#233913 - 06/29/11 03:25 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
James M Offline
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I intend to do the following unless someone has a better idea:

1.Obtain some 303 British Enfield brass
2.Fire form the cases so they're the correct size albiet a little short.
3.Load the cases full with blackpowder.
4.Crimp the heaviest 10mm bullet I can find in and start from there.

Thanks for the info PWM but I expect there's a safe smokeless equivelent to the black powder load. It's just going to take a little digging.
Jim
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#233984 - 06/30/11 10:40 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
pwm Offline
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of course, there will be a safe smokless load and the rifle itself looks very good. I would measure the velocity of the maximum blackpowder load and work up to this with nitro.
similar nitro for black loads in other cartridiges dont go over 500 m/sec.
a 10mm softpoint bullet at 500 m/sec will be enough for whitetail deer I suspect.

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#234488 - 07/05/11 04:20 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
fuhrmann Online   content
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Originally Posted By: italiansxs
I intend to do the following unless someone has a better idea:

1.Obtain some 303 British Enfield brass
2.Fire form the cases so they're the correct size albiet a little short.
3.Load the cases full with blackpowder.
4.Crimp the heaviest 10mm bullet I can find in and start from there.

Thanks for the info PWM but I expect there's a safe smokeless equivelent to the black powder load. It's just going to take a little digging.
Jim


Jim,

yes, that will be the way to go.
Some more things to consider, from my own limited experience with loading old cartridges:
- different brands and granulations of black powder will give different results
- if using less than a full case of blackpowder, use felt or cardboard wads to fill up the case
- finding the right bullet may be trial and error. Finding bullets of the correct diameter may be difficult. Smaller diameter bullets can be paper-patched and adapted.
- use a chronograph, not only for velocity readings but to check consistency of your loads

Of course in a second step smokeless can be tried. Data for "original" loads are either not to be found or they are useless anyway, because the old powders are not available any more. One has to establish new loads.
There are plenty of options, I am only pointing to a few (no details, because working these out is up to you):

- a reduced load of IMR4198 or H4198, 40% of the established BP weight, plus a filler, either Dacron wadding or some "foam rod" - note that there is plenty of discussion what is correct or not
- use of very bulky powders, omitting the filler - I like SR4759.
- "Trail Boss" may be another option

Again the chronograph is essential, stay with the blackpowder velocities.
You can compare available loading data for similar cartridges, in your case mabe .40-62 or .40-70
And there are other boards that are focussed on reloading, you might try here
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/ubbthreads.php?Cat=
or here
http://www.bpcr.net/index-a.htm

Regards,
fuhrmann

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#234517 - 07/05/11 11:39 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
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fuhrmann:
Thank you for taking the time to provide such a detailed response.
I'll let everyone know how this progresses.
Jim
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#234611 - 07/05/11 11:28 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
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How did it come to have a swing mount modern scope on it? Steve

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#234614 - 07/05/11 11:56 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
James M Offline
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Below is the very courteous reply I received from the Springer Company in regards to my rifle. I sent Margaret pictures by return email and also a link to this thread. I will let you know if I receive any more information.

Jim


Dear Sir, thank you so much for your inquiry on a double rifle number 4788 made in our house.
We are very much interested to receive pictures of this gun - please ! Unfortunately what concerns the past, we must confess that the book containing production number, date of production and date of sale, with name of customer containing numbers under 5000 have gut lost during WW2 and the Russian occupation in 1945. All guns bearing numbers above 5000 can be traced.
Upon the pictures however - and in compare to the guns we have in our museum - we would be able to tell the approx.years when your gun was produced. If there are
Initials, monogramm or crowns, there is an additional possibilty to tell for whom the gun was made.
So please let me have pictures and I will do what I can. With my best regards Margaret Weixelbraun, History Department of Joh.Springer's Erben, Wien


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#234796 - 07/07/11 03:36 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
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I was going to reread the Springer article in the Summer 1997 DGJ, but haven't quite gotten to it yet.

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#234802 - 07/07/11 03:49 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
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Thanks for the heads-up Jim and I am pleasantly surprised of the quick response. Now we get an idea of what happened to the 1-5000 longarm ledger.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#234813 - 07/07/11 05:44 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
Dave in Maine Offline
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You should make a point of including pics/dimensions of the chamber cast, too, I would think.
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#235440 - 07/13/11 07:27 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
fuhrmann Online   content
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Jim,

regarding the use of smokeless powders instead of black powder I just found this discussion:

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7793

You might find this of interest.

Fuhrmann

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#235467 - 07/13/11 12:05 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
James M Offline
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Thanks Fuhrman:
I will look at it.
Jim
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#245412 - 09/26/11 06:11 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
Frank F Offline
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I have almost the exact rifle. Do you have any idea what it's valued at?
FF

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#249154 - 10/24/11 02:43 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: Frank F]
James M Offline
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Ballpark as there's not much to compare to $3,000. If anyone else has others ideas please post them.
Jim
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#302743 - 12/02/12 06:24 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
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Interesting Springer #2768 hammer 9mm single shot with "J. SPRINGER IN WIEN STOCK IM EISEN N5" behind the ocular that was up for auction today. What is interesting is the phrase "Stock Im Eisen-Platz N5", which I think to be his address, notes a tree trunk(some Hemlock or Spruce variant) where members of a guild(I'm taking a little liberty here and attach the gunmaker's guild in that on their walkabout) would hammer a nail into the tree for good luck. This was a common practice for journeymen in Hungary, Romania and other locations within the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Remember that Johann Springer was from Upper Hungary while his master(& brother-in-law) Mathias Novonty was from Hradec Kralove, so could you image finding similar tree trunks where the greats passed and adding their good fortune nails?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#547699 - 06/05/19 10:50 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
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I realize it is an old thread, but were any enroads made to develop a smokeless load for the 10X60R/400? I have cobbled together some brass with a 9,3X74R parent headstamp & thought about using Pyrodex? Anyway, I am poised to head down this path.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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#547734 - 06/06/19 09:04 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
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A case full(9,3X74R parent headstamp) of Hodgon Pyrodex RS/FFG Eq. measures almost exactly 50 grains; well measures 50 grains exactly one might say. I have read that the 50 grains possibly was the original load? Has anyone ignited 50 grains of Pryrodex RS in a 400 3/8" Express(10X60R/400 - 10X60R Hunting)?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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#547738 - 06/06/19 09:45 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: ellenbr]
fuhrmann Online   content
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Raimey

some years ago I checked options for reloading the 11.2 x 51 R Kropatschek-Heissig with BP subsitutes.
One idea was using Pyrodex, but after reading that it shall be as corrosive as regular BP I abandoned that idea.

I worked up a load using SR4759.

Another option I tried is 4198 as described by Ross Seyfried: 40% of the BP weight, plus Dacron as filler.

fuhrmann

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#547760 - 06/06/19 02:26 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
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Any idea of what the velocity should approach? Or should I load some BP and/or Pyrodex and empirically measure the velocity?

I would rather migrate to a VV powder designation.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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#547787 - 06/06/19 07:31 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
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On the www.naboje.org/en/node/12539# site it gives the following:

3,1 grams of Black Powder - 47.8 grains

16.2 gram bullet - 250 grain

460 m/s - velocity - about 1500 ft/s

Eo. - 1700 J.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse


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#547802 - 06/07/19 02:42 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
fuhrmann Online   content
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Raimey

that´s an interesting site!
Those detailed data come up for "verified users" only?
Those loading data look quite right.
I haven´t seen such detailed data in all my pre-WW I catalogs (Roth, DWM, Utendoerffer).
It seems those Czech or Slovak ammo factories continued loading the old BP cartridges after WW I, maybe even after WW II and started to measure decent ballistic data?

Questions:
what sort of black powder?
Who generated or collected the data?
When?

My approach would be to choose a comparable bullet and not exceed the velocity given for the BP load.

Checking your loads with a chronograph is a must!

VV powder means Vihtavuori?
I have never seen any data published for VV powders as BP substitute.

fuhrmann

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#547809 - 06/07/19 08:30 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: fuhrmann]
ellenbr Offline
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Originally Posted By: fuhrmann

I haven´t seen such detailed data in all my pre-WW I catalogs (Roth, DWM, Utendoerffer).
It seems those Czech or Slovak ammo factories continued loading the old BP cartridges after WW I, maybe even after WW II and started to measure decent ballistic data?


Yeah, me thinks the Czech folks are withholding valuable info or it may be that we haven't asked but they are mining data from somewhere. Remember S&B has been established for quite a few years and many times an Austrian or German weapons maker would cut a chamber to the whims of his client(Czech, Serb, whomever).

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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#547810 - 06/07/19 08:31 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: fuhrmann]
ellenbr Offline
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Originally Posted By: fuhrmann

Questions:
what sort of black powder?
Who generated or collected the data?
When?


Have zero idea but it provides parameters from which to design a load.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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#547811 - 06/07/19 08:38 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: fuhrmann]
ellenbr Offline
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Originally Posted By: fuhrmann


VV powder means Vihtavuori?
I have never seen any data published for VV powders as BP substitute.


Yes, Vihta Vuori. No, possibly not a true substitute for BP but they too have been in operation for quite some time and some of their old powders replicate(closely or loosely???) those powders used in the period when loads were converted from BP to semi-smokeless. Ford put me on a trail of VV N140 where Axel E had noted that VV N140 had a similar burn rate to R5(Rottweil) and the results were stellar.

https://www.lhs-germany.de/en/powder/smokeless-powder/rottweil/

So I think I would migrate from BP to 4198, whatever, & then over to VV. Seems one has to match the powder to the chamber?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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#547820 - 06/07/19 10:29 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
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A knowledgeable cartridge collector in Germany gives it as the 10X60R Roth and to fill the case to the base of the bullet w/ black powder & let if fly. Pretty corrosive I must say.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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#547859 - 06/07/19 06:27 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
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Ok, now what >>of the shelf<< dies might one use to neck it down enough to accommodate a 0.391"+ diameter bullet?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse



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#547878 - 06/08/19 07:27 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
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40 Kal / 10mm Pistol dies are a bit too harsh & 44 Kal is just a skosh too large.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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#547906 - 06/08/19 02:21 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: ellenbr]
Der Ami Offline
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Raimey,
What about 41 Mag, or 401 Herter? I haven't gotten to that point yet, but I am planning to crimp my 10x42R with the .401, if it works.
Mike

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#547912 - 06/08/19 03:49 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
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Thanks Ford. Has anyone shot any of the >>all<< Zinc bullets?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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#547944 - 06/09/19 05:53 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: ellenbr]
fuhrmann Online   content
Sidelock

Registered: 03/15/10
Posts: 120
Originally Posted By: ellenbr

Yes, Vihta Vuori. No, possibly not a true substitute for BP but they too have been in operation for quite some time and some of their old powders replicate(closely or loosely???) those powders used in the period when loads were converted from BP to semi-smokeless. Ford put me on a trail of VV N140 where Axel E had noted that VV N140 had a similar burn rate to R5(Rottweil) and the results were stellar.

https://www.lhs-germany.de/en/powder/smokeless-powder/rottweil/

So I think I would migrate from BP to 4198, whatever, & then over to VV. Seems one has to match the powder to the chamber?



Raimey,
if anybody knows about this, then it will be Axel.
From my limited experience, I see no point in trying VV 140. Sure, it may be around for a long time, but all those rifle powders have the same disadvantage: they have not enough bulk or volume to fill those old big BP cases.
"to match the powder to the chamber?" if that means "always work up a new load carefully" I will agree.

fuhrmann

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#547945 - 06/09/19 06:04 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: ellenbr]
fuhrmann Online   content
Sidelock

Registered: 03/15/10
Posts: 120
Originally Posted By: ellenbr
A knowledgeable cartridge collector in Germany gives it as the 10X60R Roth and to fill the case to the base of the bullet w/ black powder & let if fly. Pretty corrosive I must say.


Sure, using BP and "filling up the case" is an easier approach than NfB.
Still there are some complications: "Any black powder" will NOT do.
E.g. you can generate a lot of bang and peak pressure with too fine BP.
Using over-powder wads or not is the next question.
Bullet choice will be critical to get sufficient accuracy
(BTW, why zinc bullets? One more complication.)

Corrosion can be handled by good cleaning procedures, for rifle AND cases..It is messy, agreed!

fuhrmann

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#547949 - 06/09/19 07:57 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: fuhrmann]
ellenbr Offline
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Originally Posted By: fuhrmann

(BTW, why zinc bullets? One more complication.
fuhrmann


No, just a generic question as I see more & more Zinc options when searching for bullets. Just wondered who in the world was shooting them and if the loads were similar.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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#547959 - 06/09/19 10:53 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: fuhrmann]
Der Ami Offline
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fuhrmann,
I haven't done that much research, but I don't think you will find R5 in many large BP cases. The discussion wasn't about using VV N140 instead of black powder, rather it was about using it instead of R5.
Mike

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#548017 - 06/10/19 04:43 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: Der Ami]
fuhrmann Online   content
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Registered: 03/15/10
Posts: 120
Mike

did I miss something?
IMO the discussion here is about loading a 10x60R Roth which is an old BP number, with some nitro substitutes, such as the historic R5 or a modern substitute.
In fact the 1940 RWS Handbook specifies R5 for the 9,3x72R (dimensions not so far away from 10x60R...), but as far as I can see only for the more potent nitro loads.

fuhrmann

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#548039 - 06/10/19 10:15 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
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My point was that during the time of the conversion from BP load to semi-smokeless, cordite, whatever, then someone, somehow transitioned to the historic R5(Rottweil), whatever. So we have a weak, possibly indirect, link to the past.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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#548053 - 06/10/19 12:54 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: fuhrmann]
Der Ami Offline
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furman,
I merely passed along to Raimey, Axle's finding that the burning rate of VV N140 is very close to R5( previously R5 was said to be between 3031 and 4064). This is useful info where you can find a load with R5, but I wouldn't try to extend the comparison to black powder. If I were loading for a 10x60, I would likely use Unique, 4198, or 5744, maybe 4895.
Mike

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#548159 - 06/12/19 02:02 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
fuhrmann Online   content
Sidelock

Registered: 03/15/10
Posts: 120
Gentlemen
thanks for the explanation!
It seems I had a different angle of view then.
fuhrmann

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#548255 - 06/13/19 12:55 PM J. Schaschl Ferlach Biks [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
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Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8818
Loc: North Alabama
About 40 grains of Pyrodex RS(dropped a few cylinders) behind a 180 grain cast lead bullet resulted in 530 m/s & at 35 paces I actually hit the bullseye. Not sure 'bout the card just yet. Just by feel, I think it needs a little more power behind it. Possibly walk up toward 3,1 grammes & see how that does.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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#548260 - 06/13/19 01:33 PM J. Schaschl Ferlach Biks [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
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Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8818
Loc: North Alabama
Now 45 grains of Pyrodex RS, which borders heavily on a compressed load, behind a 180 grain Cast bullet for 4 loads.

Average velocity 490 m/s with the 4 shots in a vertical column with a max separation of say 4". Actually the other 3 were clustered on the top right corner of the bullseye with one outlier down below. Boy that Pyrodex RS really colours the cases. Having a slight issue w/ stuck cases.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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#548341 - 06/14/19 09:38 PM J. Schaschl Ferlach Biks [Re: pwm]
ellenbr Offline
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Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8818
Loc: North Alabama
Originally Posted By: pwm
.........what we know: is it a real 10mm /400 and it have a paper thin neck

...........the paper thin brass case is typical for the early express rounds and the 10x60 R 400 comes from one. this is not a 450 basic case necked down.......


.........old chambers are made different than we do it now. I have casting were the chamber ends with the case mouth. no free bore, nothing, the lead bullet engrave into the rifling when loaded.....


PWM, if you drop in from time to time, can you clarify on the neck? Is there a thin neck from the 400 bore transitioning to the rifling? I ask this because I am working with a similar chamber which has a constant chamber diameter for a length of 61mm with the diameter larger than that of the bullet. Then from 61mm to 67mm there is a transition / necking down to 400 kaliber.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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#549317 - 06/29/19 09:48 AM Re: J. Schaschl Ferlach Biks [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
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Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8818
Loc: North Alabama
For the 1 or 2 still taggin' along, Oxiclean is the ticket to removing the undesirables from the cases. Although I haven't balanced the equations, water seems to be the catalyst? Anyway, natrium perborate or sodium perborate is the key ingredient.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANeHbCjGIwM

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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#550770 - 07/15/19 08:24 PM Re: J. Schaschl Ferlach Biks [Re: James M]
Tinker Offline
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Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 888
Loc: Northern NV
Thanks Rainey for the brass cleaning tip.

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#550811 - 07/16/19 09:57 AM Re: J. Schaschl Ferlach Biks [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
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Loc: North Alabama
No worries Tinker & glad to pass it on. Now I am not sure how much to add or if there is a concentrated version of Oxiclean? I 1st purchased a small spray bottle but I am not sure as to the concentration. But the concoction will foam up residue from the cases......

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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#550904 - 07/17/19 10:22 AM Re: J. Schaschl Ferlach Biks [Re: ellenbr]
Tinker Offline
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Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 888
Loc: Northern NV
Got it.

I'll look at the market shelves for whatever assortment of forms of the brand I can find.
I have some brass here that I'll run with this sauce.

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#550958 - 07/17/19 07:59 PM Re: J. Schaschl Ferlach Biks [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
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Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8818
Loc: North Alabama
One other think Tinker & that is that the reaction may be more volatile with bona fide black powder instead of the synthetic or psuedo powders with a deflagration origin. For now I have only tried it w/ Pyrodex RS and considering that composition has sulfur that mixture is some more corrosive.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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#551580 - 07/26/19 08:34 AM Re: J. Schaschl Ferlach Biks [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
Sidelock
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Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8818
Loc: North Alabama
Seems that in order to get the desired effect, just add more concentrated Oxiclean. One issue I am having is w/ stuck cases after firing. Said stuck cases have to be tapped out w/ a brass rod.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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