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#232324 - 06/14/11 10:19 AM Joh Springer in Wein
James M Offline
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Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 7437
Loc: Arizona
I walked into an estate sale(actually it turned out to be a divorce situation) on Saturday not expecting much but I asked if there was anything hunting related. The lady told me there was an old gun in the corner. The price quoted seemed very reasonable so it went home with me. I don't think I really realized what I had bought until I got home. I can now tell you all I love divorce sales!
This rifle is in excellent mechanical and cosmetic condition and still locks up like the proverbial bank vault. I have an email inquirery into the Springer Company which is still in business but no longer manufactures firearms. I suspect the caliber is their proprietary 10.75x52R but I'm waiting to hear back.
The rifle is numbered "No 4788" on the buttplate(not pictured) as well as elsewhere. It is also marked "ARVAUDB II 7740" on the underside as can be seen in picture #8. There is also a pop up sight located in the upper tang.
Any information anyone can provide will be greatly appreciated.
Jim

Update: I just found barrel markings.The barrel are marked on top "F Denk(L) in Wien(R)" so apparently the barrel maker is different then the gun maker.











Edited by italiansxs (06/14/11 06:20 PM)
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#232385 - 06/14/11 10:23 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
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Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8615
Loc: North Alabama
Franz Denk most likely was the firearms merchant here. He's sort of an obscure Austrian maker and usually didn't peddle any junk. I'm interested to see what Springer's Erben has to offer as 5000 is considered pretty much when time began with Springer's Erben serialization and most give circa 1870. So if the serial number is less that 5k then it was made prior to 1870??? I'd guess it was made in the 1870s and the tubes steel looks to be cast or fluid steel. Any marks there? Also I've seen several doubles with that unique barrel latch with "ARVAUD Bte." I can't recall what the correct spelling is but check it with a glass. Maybe PeteM can recall. The device may have been a holdover from the pinfire era. I have a close-up image of the stamp somewhere and have been chasing that advancement as well as the number assigned to it on each weapon. It's a T handle, just pull it forward toward the muzzle and the tubes should release. He doesn't appear to taunt the K & K Kammer-Lieferanten title, which was awarded/purchased in 1872. Johann Springer was born in 1819 in Leutschau/Löcse, Hungary. In 1840 he caught a cart out to Vienna. So the weapon may have been made between 1870 & 1872/73.

I thought the 10.75X52R Springer Marine was developed toward the end of the 19th century? But a chamber cast and some measurements will reveal the cartridge.

Interesting soap opera on the Mathais Nowonty & Johann Springer relationship. More than likely, Johann Springer was an apprentice at Mathais Nowotny's shop. Mathais Nowotny was born in Leitmertz(Litomerice) in Bohemia. In 1838(1836??) he moved to Vienna and I bet Johann Springer was on his walkabout. In 1847 Johann Springer married the sister of Mathais Nowotny. Then in 1852 Springer leased Mathais Nowotny's shop, or some portion thereof, while Mathais Nowotny built a small weapons making facility and acquired the proper permits. Mathais Nowotny was a maker to one of the courts by this time. Some love triangle developed and Mathais Nowotny(Novotny) couldn't accept or deal with it, so he commited suicide in 1857. Shortly after the self inflicted mortal bullet wound, Mathais Nowotny's widow sold the business and the small weapons factory to brother-in-law Springer.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#232390 - 06/14/11 11:38 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: ellenbr]
pwm Offline
Sidelock

Registered: 01/08/04
Posts: 206
Loc: germany
interesting double rifle but I doubt that this a 10,75x52R. it looks much to early for this round. I search a little bit about this cartridge and have a sporting rifle projekt with a Mannlicher M 95 action. a new chamber reamer will be made this year when my die set arive from ch4d.
I dont see a neck in your pic but it could probably be the 11,2x52R kropatchek or the 11,5x60R 450.
waiting to hear the dimensions from a chamber cast.


Edited by pwm (06/14/11 11:39 PM)

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#232394 - 06/14/11 11:55 PM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
danross70 Offline
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Registered: 01/09/02
Posts: 279
Loc: often in Traverse City MI
What a neat find! how does it lock up? Like a Jones Underlever with a different crank? Or is there only one horizontal locking arm (Jones has 2, is T shaped)?

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#232412 - 06/15/11 07:18 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
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Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8615
Loc: North Alabama
The system is that of Lefaucheux with an added barrel lock.

Wikipedia is Johnny on the spot with a German language version of the history of Johann Springer. Here's a forced translation from http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joh._Springer%E2%80%99s_Erben (copy & paste) :

"The company history extends back to the 1830s. At that time, let the gunsmith Mathias Nowotny from Hradec Kralove down in Vienna. In 1836 he was authorized to practice his profession. He quickly became successful and was able to find the shop in the Josefstadt a branch on the vine-im-Eisen-Platz 5 in the 1st District building. In 1856 he shot himself, however, and his widow sold a year later the business to John Springer.
John Springer was from Leutschach in Upper Hungary, and came as an engraver to Vienna. He mastered the art of the arms of the noble metal engraving in fine customers. He also learned the gunsmith and later married Catherine Nowotny, the sister of Mathias Nowotny. Springer worked for 15 years Nowotny, whose confidence he enjoyed. After the death of Nowotny and the takeover of the company, in 1857 he changed the company name to "John Springer, formerly Mathias Nowotny" around.
He specialized in the production of luxury hunting weapons , and won by the quality of the products several medals at exhibitions. The Emperor was one of the regulars and 1872 gave him this title imperial chamber , a higher markup than the Hoflieferantentitel.
John Springer died in 1875 and his widow had to run the company while seven children are concerned. The sons and Gustav Rudolf Springer completed their training as part of the company Brandlín in Birmingham, later took over the company in 1888 and changed the name to "Johann Springer's Erben. In the same year had the old house on a stick-in-place iron Springer leave as it is for the new Palais Equitable should be demolished.
The brothers Rudolf and Gustav Springer could establish the factory on. The products were awarded the Golden Austrian State Prize and other awards at international exhibitions like the 1908 Grand Prix of Monte Carlo. In the 1930s, Springer was appointed royal purveyors of Monaco.
The kuk Hoflieferantentitel was again awarded 1911th In addition to the emperor and the imperial court as Archduke Franz Ferdinand and Archduchess Maria Theresa, the company had with its customers many noble families, including Liechtenstein , Esterházy , Coburg and Orlowski . Business was good and in 1912 the company had one million gold crowns over debts. Springer had his own factory and display at the Joseph Lane 10 in the 8th District and three local sale in Vienna, including the Stock-im-Eisen Platz 5 in under 1 District and Mariahilf. The branch on the 1st District later moved to the address pit 10 around.
The First World War and the collapse of the monarchy brought the company on hard times. During the Second World War the company had to include parts for the V2 weapons manufacturers.
After the second world war were to continue to produce guns. Customers have included Soviet Marshal Konev, General Kaltschenko, allied officers and big-game hunter Ernst twin . In 1949, Johann Springer's daughter Margaret's business. The weapons production had to be finally set in December 1955. The trade in weapons remained a line of business, with industrial customers were like. However, the debt grew and in 1958 had the heiress of the family estate and the factory, sell it to stabilize the finances.
On 1 April 2008, Christian Johann Springer's company of his mother Margaret Weixelbraun. On Kagranerplatz eight branch was extended: it now leads hunting and sporting weapons, military, pistols and reloading products to 370 square feet. The former stores the trench 10 and the Habsburg lane 8 were transferred to the Weihburggasse 27. At 700 square feet on three floors hunting weapons are new or used available. In addition to the traditional segment of arms for hunting and sporting weapons, military, pistols and reloading products, the company is expanding into other areas and has been autumn hunting trips and weapons auctions in 2008."

Very interesting how there seems to be such a talent pool in Hungary. I think Feodor Osipovitch Matska was born in Hungary or in the Bohemian region. The students learn their craft and the head to where the money is at the center of the Austro-Hungarian empire, which really formed just prior to the making of this example, circa 1867, but still Wien a top spot for separating the elite from their funds.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#232420 - 06/15/11 08:59 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
James M Offline
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Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 7437
Loc: Arizona
I've just miked the barrels and I'm getting just under 11mm at the bore and just under 12mm at the chamber end. I will bring the rifle to my club and do a chamber cast. The barrels are definitely fluid steet. I can't seem to figure out how to unlatch them from the frame as nothing seems to move after I break the gun open. Any ideas?
Jim
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#232423 - 06/15/11 09:20 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8615
Loc: North Alabama
Jim:
It has something like a ball detent where the "T" lever snaps into place. With the weapon on its back/top and facing the stock, pull the top of the "T" handle up and folding toward the muzzle until the "T" handle is perpendicular to the tubeset. I'm still searching for an image of the device.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#232429 - 06/15/11 10:18 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
pwm Offline
Sidelock

Registered: 01/08/04
Posts: 206
Loc: germany
I think the 10,75x52R spinger was created after 1904 because dont know it better till now. all top levers so your rifle is looking much older for my taste but we will see.
thats how doubles and singles have look in the 1914 catalog



1924 springer catalog

a single shot hammer rifle like shown into this catalog, was a 8mm caliber iirc



I got this drawing from Harald Wolf in belgium last year. 15 years ago he was making a lot of ammo for an older gentlman who was dieing before the order came to an end. this order was very official including CIP proof for the ammo in Liege.


9,3x53R Sako 10,75x52R Springer 10,75x57 10,75x68


custum loaded ammo from Samereier in Germany for a 10,75 Springer double rifle with the old components from Harald Wolf

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#232432 - 06/15/11 10:53 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
ellenbr Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8615
Loc: North Alabama
pwm:
Nice bit of info. Yeah, the round could have been developed between 1900 & 1910 and may have paralled the Gründig version?



I finally found what I was searching for: AR. ANO Bte are the letters, or something of the sort, and may have been common on early Auguste Francottes. I can't tell if the controller's stamps are crowned or spangled. But Johann Springer was sourcing Auguste Francotte for weapons, weapons in the white or parts kits/tube sets. Then Franz Denk was sourcing Johann Springer. The following is similar and touts the k.u.k appointment( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_and_Royal - http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post204070 ) so it would have been made during or after 1872.











Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#232435 - 06/15/11 11:18 AM Re: Joh Springer in Wein [Re: James M]
James M Offline
Sidelock
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Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 7437
Loc: Arizona
Raimey:
Please look at my next to last picture posted above. I have tried lifting up on the "T" end of the piece(where the lettering is located) and also the other round end and nothing moves. I don't like forcing things so I'm waiting for further direction from you.
Jim
_________________________
The 2nd Amendment IS an unalienable right.

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