doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Interesting Parker

Dave, the simple answer is that when buying a specific type of gun you often can't be too choosy up front or you will never own one. A fair deal on a good Parker is a one day proposition - if you don't 'buy it now' it's gone.

In answer to your comments:

a) Not true; for guns no longer produced you have to deal with whomever owns the gun you are interested in, or pass on the gun. You can pick your nose but you can't pick your sellers.

b) Many sellers will not disclose a flaw even if you ask, or will seriously downplay it. For example, on GB or GA there is a Parker which has what is described as a 'very minor barrel ding'. I have seen the gun and it is a large ding and probably near-impossible to rectify.

c) Photos often can be taken to hide flaws, and many sellers hide behind their inability or unwillingness to take photos. When you sell a gun you sound like you do what I do - full disclosure - but most don't. Most prefer the Bill Clinton "Dont' Ask Don't Tell' policy.

d) I will go to my grave expecting the same of others as I would do for them. I don't intend to relax that standard. There are shaky people and always will be - I just don't intend to accomodate them.

I don't think it's about being dishonest....elusive, maybe evasive would be a better word.
I think some hope you won't see the problems. I've sent two guns back with'n the last month or two.
On one the firing pin hole was caroded to the point of being so bad I'm surprised the firing pin didn't just fall out of it. This was after specifically asking about the condition of the breach face with the gun in this experts hand.
The other because the forearm was a very poor replactment....maybe they didn't see these things but they were very obvious to me with'n minutes of opening the box.

The first person did give me a small break on my return shipping after getting testy with me.....telling me that I wouldn't find a nicer gun for the price. He should've said a nicer piece of pretty junk for the price.

A fellow could go broke paying for return shipping window shopping guns. All I want is an honest evaluation from these experts.
L.F.

gregsy,
its to bad you have that poor outlook on this hobby and life.Maybe one day you will enjoy it more.I sincerely hope you do as life is to way short and this hobby is full of a lot,by far the great majority, of honest upstanding people who enjoy learning from one another as well as buying and selling.I thoughly enjoy it and hope one day you will as well.

Topgun, you are absolutly right, I didn't notice the 1905, 1910 patten dates. So that really screws up things! It's not a VH 16 ga reciever and whoever would upgrade to a D is crazy or way too rich. The barrels do look much older and altered, (sleeving, no wedge, altered markings). I wish Delgrego would post here so he could admit or deny the restoration. and tell us what it looked like before.

Bad sellers and cheap buyers make for a fun day. In fact I will see plenty of both at Louisville soon enough. I think that instead I might just troll the parking lot with cash in hand and buy all the bargins before they get in. See a few Lefevers, Fox and the odd Parker with the first five thousand. Then a few rear...

We all like bargins and we all like top dollar when we want to sell. The difference between us andmost of the rest of the buyers is not that we always know what is wrong but that we have been educated enough to know that something is wrong and are not too proud to ask for help here. When you think about it this BB must save the posters and readers several hundred thousand dollars a year. Might go even higher. Information is priceless and most of it here is free for the asking. Thanks Dave for this BBS.

Your right, the word TITANIC is really messed up. The slant is different and the top, horizontal stroke on the "T" is longer than other T's. The "N" is wider than other N's and its diagonal stroke is missing the short, mid stroke vertical cut. The "C" is way below the lettering base line. It is also more round than other C's and it has an extra, short serif stroke on the top. Anyway, these are the most glaring differances to my eyes.

Michael
http://www.archcarving.com

What would BATF would say if you asked them if it was ok to re-number a serial number? Before you dismiss the thought consider what their response would be. No, NO, do it and if we catch you we would like to talk to you about it.

That said, I doubt very much if Delgreco was stupid enough to change the serial numbers. In fact I bet good money that they did not do it. Not disputing that it has been done, just that no smart dealer or repair service would do it for fear of loosing their FFL. A few hundred dollars, for such a act, with the certain knowledge that your FFL would be lost if and when caught, would make it almost a certain fact that Delgreco did not change the numbers.

So the mystery is who did it? My guess is that the person who did the engraving was the one who restamped the gun and over stamped all the noted areas. Delgreco I do not doubt may have sleeved the gun, recolored the action and might have been the one to have restocked the gun. Looks a little poor for thier stock work, but maybe they did the restock job.

Seems like a lot of work to fake up a D grade. Figure if real it might be worth around $4,500-5,500.00. But to have the barrels resleeved stock replaced, engraving upgraded, recolored and all finish restored must have taken up almost all of that much money unless done 30 years ago. And if it is a 30 year old job, never shot, since there is no wear, what was the point? To make a profit 30 years later. Poor investment.

My first hunch was that this gun was restored by someone who though a lot about the gun. Maybe a gun handed down in his family. In poor shape and needing a complete overhaul. You know those unsafe damascus barrels, maybe heavily pitted bores, cracked stock, no finish left. They had it fixed up and upgraded to a higher grade as they went. But the problem with that is that they never would have wanted to, or thought about, changing serial numbers or restamping the gun. I have upgraded many a gun and never once considered changing the numbers.

No this gun was reworked to make it look like a better grade and appear to be worth far more than it is worth. They choose DH because that was the most popular grade with about 9,500 made and they thought that they could blend in with all the rest easier. You know decent grade but not so rare that it would attract a detailed evaluation by half a dozen "experts".

Funny thing is that had this gun just been put on the rack, in a local gun store, it might have been happily bought as the real thing. But by going for a much larger market it was spotted fairly quickly as a upgrade. Now the only real way to get top dollar out of this gun is to pull it off the auction, wait a few months and put it on the rack. Several local Parker collectors would be happy to find such a gem.

In fact, I know one collector in Lexington, KY who has about 30 such upgraded or refinished guns that he has bought as "originals" over the years. All from two or three dealers who evaluated them for him and have assured him that they are mint to high grade guns. Ought to drop this seller a email and give his name to this seller. You know what they say a fool and his money are soon parted and this buyer has a lot of money.

For whatever my opinion may be worth the time to read this post, I believe the number on the frame is most likely original. Sure, part of the serial number stamp looks a little rough; but such misstamps are not rare on Parker guns. Even overstamps are not unusual on Parker guns. In the local gunshop as I write is a 10-bore Parker in the 103xxx range that was inadverdantly stamped "P"; then overstamped as an "N" Grade. And even incorrect serial number log entries were occassionally made. Another for instance, a local attorney recently brought a 28-bore VH by for an opinion as to originality; as he had learned the serial number on his gun was recorded as a 12-bore in the Parker Serialization Book. On close inspection I could find no evidence of fakery, and am convinced the gun is original; so it's anyone's guess as to how that error was made. As to the subject Parker, I believe the frame patent dates, grade stamp, and serial number are correct; and also that the gun was originally an ejector gun (and you will note the seller neglected to provide a photo of the knuckle of the frame). It is my opinion that at some point the original barrels were lost or destroyed and have been replaced with an early set of Parker barrels that were originally marked "Twist" Steel. Why do I think this is so? A Parker gun late enough to have the 1905 and 1910 patent date stamps would have the replaceable, tapered bolt face. This set of barrels has the "square" bolt face common to early Parker barrels. Again, note that the seller neglected to provide a clear photo of that feature; and also the side of the barrel lug, which would allow us to determine if the barrel serial number had been tampered with in any manner. We are in agreement that the word "Titanic" in the rib panel has obviously been facked; but, if one were looking for a set of Parker barrels to sleeve and fake as original "Titanic" steel barrels, wouldn't it be much much easier to use a set of Twist barrels for that purpose as opposed to a set of Damascus barrels? Think first about faking the rib inscription; the word "Titanic" would be more proportional and therefore "fit" much better within the space alloted for the word "Twist" than in the rib space allotted for the word "Damascus". And further, Parker Twist steel barrels have the "T" stamp for Twist steel on the barrels flats already; eliminating the need to fake that stamp and making it much easier to fool the unsuspecting buyer into thinking the "T" stamp denoted "Titanic" steel. If one looks very closely at the photo of the barrel flats (at the edge of the flats just below the patent date stamp) there is a faint (and illegible to me) stamp that is certainly not an original Parker stamp. I am thinking this stamp may have been added by the smith who sleeved the barrels. At any rate, it is truly unfortunate that some people deliberately misrepresent a gun like this; and an absolute pity that some unsuspecting soul, smitten with the "double gun bug" will "pay for his Parker education" thru this piece. A few years ago, I was in a gunshop in Charlotte, NC and stuck up a conversation with a gentleman who had just purchased an "original" DHE 20-bore Parker; and he beamed from ear-to-ear as he proudly showed me the gun. I'm about half blind; but even I could instantly see the finish was redone (the tear drops had even been sanded off the cheek panels!); and the gun sported an "original" Pachmayer White-Line pad. This gentleman was so proud of his collection that he invited me to his home that evening where I spent the rest of the day looking thru the contents of two large safes full of similar Parkers. I shutter to think how his heirs will react when they learn the actual worth of those guns.