doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Choke and Muzzleloaders

KK, I am and have been an admirer of V. M. for a long time. I corresponded with him until just before he died. I regret that I never got to meet him, face-to-face. "In love...."; I dunno. Very much respect, yes.

I'll let the observations about syntax and reading comprehension pass. I'll just put the responsibility on myself. I very much regret any unfairness and any "heartburn" that might have come from my comments.

"Windbag"; I guess, being a Midwesterner, I just don't see his style as indicating that. A good bit of it is humor. I suppose that this might be a cultural thing. (I still think that DUPA is a bit much...especially based on the "take" on the term that I have derived from "Buffalo Polish".)

Dave Katt makes a couple of good points. First, the primary role of fiber wads in m/l shotguns is as a carrier of lubricant. Secondarily, the role can also be as an obturator where bore conditions requre it, e.g. when a gun has a "burnt breech". From what I can tell, protection from shot deformation is usually distinctly secondary, possibly due in part to BP's comparatively gentle pressure curve. One of the "knocks" on Fffg powder (see Fadala) as a shotgun powder is that it allegedly "tears up" wad columns more than Ffg and Fg powders do.

One approach to compensating for reduced shot velocities is to "go up" one shot size from what is used with more standard-velocity loads. This might be one reason why larger shot charges are recommended; to increase pellet count with the larger shot.

Golfs" makes an intersting observation. What he seems to be talking about is what were called "shot concentrators", some of which were pretty elaborate. Oiled cloth most certainly would work. However, I have had my best results, though not with jug choked barrels, with "concentrators" that are made from "cereal box cardboard". The devices are simple "crosses" that have their "arms" just long enough to almost completely encase the desired powder charge and just wide enough to cover the circumference of the bore when they are "put together". The "crosses" are "pre-formed" by pushing them through a bore size hole in a piece of board, which "breaks" the carboard slightly and which forms the "cross" into a "cup". I have found such "cups" to load more easily than shot protectors that are made of "softer" materials. I am not sure how much lubrication of these cups would help if there is other wad lubrication present. However, I suppose that such lubrication most likely would not hurt anything.

"Golfs" also makes a good point about V. M.'s loads. Some (though not nearly all) of V. M.'s loads apparently were intended for choke-bored barrels. However, his "base" volume-for-volume load does seem to have more general applications.

KK asks a good question about modifying OP wads. It is not at all uncommon to have tight-fitting OP wads try to "back out" due to trapped air in the bore. The purpose of the hole is to allow this air to escape during loading. Holes can work but I have had my best luck with making a small "notch" on one side of my card OP wads. This practice can ease loading effort quite a bit. Of course, being a bit on the compusive Teutonic side, I have always preferred to use two OP wads, making sure that the notches do not line up. (One can't be too carful, you know!) I understand that one of the tools that often came with "original" guns was a device that would be used to "notch" wads.

OK, Mr. Moderator! I'm ready for my "star dock", now.

I do not place a hole or notch in my cards. I like to hear the "hiss" coming through the vent or nipple, as the compressed air escapes. I feel that the compressed air helps to get the powder into the vent or the nipple for faster ignition and it also blows the vent or nipple clean. I just hold the ram rod down a little as I prepare for the next item to go down the barrel. I have not had a problem. It is just something that after awhile, you get used to and do it. I have tried all kinds of homemade and modern shotgun wad or cups to try yo get a tighter pattern. None, seemed to work for me consistently. Some shots would go to the patterning board in the form of a slug and then some shots would work beautiful. But, I never got repeatable patterns. I am not a scientist, so I can only report what works for me. It seems as if shot cups, need a constriction in the muzzle, to "pull" them out of the shot stream, to get consistent patterns. I feel if you want to get consistent patterns, you have to forget to a degree, what you know about modern guns with restriction chokes. You want your components to be light and able to flutter out of the shot stream very rapidly. I have no knowledge using a jug choke.

The vents were added to cap locks because the flintlock people claimed that the flintlock shot harder because of it's more open system because the powder could breath better...thus vents were added to cap locks so they would shoot as hard (it was later found to be hogwash).

I tried every loading combination Starr talked about and had my best results with a thick Nitro card, lubed fiber cushion wad and thin over shot card. The 3 vintage muzzleloading shotguns I had (a 9, 10 and 13 bore) all shot better with full power loads.

I hunt with the guns I own and after realizing that a muzzle loading shotgun is a 30 yard gun I sold all mine and converted to vintage cartridge guns with choke.

So I looked at most of what Starr wrote as hogwash with the exception of jug choking.

Just to be clear. When I talked of vents, I was referring to the vents used on a flint gun to ignite the main powder charge, just as a nipple is used on a percussion gun.

They are both percussion guns and both flint and cap locks have vents.

Now this, THIS is great stuff and a major reason why this board is so good. KNOWLEDGEABLE members with a wealth of experience all pitching in trying to reach a common goal. Gary D, Dingelfutz, Dave Katt, Homeless Joe and Golfswithwolves, thank you for sharing your takes on the question at hand.

Ding, I had no personal beef with Mr Starr or YOU, for that matter. Being a personal correspondent with the man definitely gave you more background on his contributions than could be gleaned, at least by me, from his booklet. I apologize if my comments raised your hackles, but from my perspective I didn't see what you have been privy to.

At any rate, I just took delivery of a box from TOW about 20 minutes ago. I haven't opened it yet, but inside are the "guts" of shotgun muzzleloading loads: cards, fiber wads, lubricated felt wads and the like. I plan on using them in an array of guns in the upcoming weeks.

Joe, I found your comment interesting reagarding the use of heavier loads. Just a few days ago I acquired an absolutely beautifully made, and cared for, 10 bore caplock shotgun from nineteenth century American gunmaker (although he came from Ireland)Patrick Mullin. I purchased it from a gentleman and fellow board member.

In speaking to him I learned that he got the best patterns by using 4 drams of powder and 1 1/4 ozs of shot. I guess I can't say if over 100 grains of powder in a 10 bore would be considered "heavy", but it struck me as not being light. He also emphasized that he used lubricated wads. I'm anxious to try that load to see for myself.

Again, many thanks to all of you for contributing your own experiences and findings. It's to everyone's benefit, but you don't need me to point that out!

Marc, but what powder was he using, powder that is not made any more? And what granulation of powder are you going to use now 2fg 3fg, Goex, Swiss?

KK, uh oh! You've gone and done it, now! You are exposing youself to a "bug" that does not respond well to antibiotics! Your other guns might well become lonely! (V. M. warned about this, incidentally!)

FWIW, my hackles are down and my feathers are smoothed out. Thank you for your kind comments. They are appreciated.

I suspect that you might find that the m/l shotgun comes closest to being "the essential gun". Properly loaded, there are very few jobs that it can't do reasonably well. The gun is easy to maintain and use. Components are relatively easy to get or, worst possible case, to improvise. (Push coming to shove, wads, shot, and even powder and caps can be made by individuals who have the requisite skills.) I can think of no better long-term "bug out/survival gun".

You might be surprised, too, at just how much fun these old "smokers" are to shoot...and how well you do shooting it. "Handicapped" by using a "front feeder"? I have never thought so.

Smooth bores of all types, but especially d/bs, have largely been treated like stepchildren by the "buckskin and long rifle crowd". I suppose that it has been more "romantic" to think if our hardy pioneers, mountain men, etc. using rifles instead of the smooth bores that so many of those folks actually used. Perhaps the Double Gun Crowd can rectify this and give these old guns the honor and respect that they deserve.

It sounds like you have acquired a fine old piece. Please keep us updated about your progress and adventures with her.

Well not exactly, definitely not in the same sense.
A cap lock ignites from the hammer hitting a cap containing percussion powder. It thus ignites from the percussion.
A Flint lock does not ignite the powder from percussion. It strikes a spark of red hot steel which ignites the priming powder.

Some cap locks were drilled with vents, others were not. The onky "Vent" any of my cap locks have is through the nipple. As the hammer stays down on the fired cap, which is not blown off, there is little if any escape here.

Your right about the other guns getting lonely. I haven't used a "modern" shotgun in years, once the ml'ing shotgun bug took a bite. Sure, I suffer against modern guns in a game of trap, with my old cyl. bores, but I don't when it comes to game. I will wait till they are a little closer, or be more conservative on what I call a shootable target. But another plus side to me, is the debris I leave behind when done hunting. I have no hulls that I missed to find and I have no plastic wads laying out in the field. I have even been told by a landowner how much he appreciates the "no litte" left over from a day of dove hunting. But, for an afternoon with the boys shooting trap, it is hard to fault the modern guns.