January
S M T W T F S
1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15
16 17 18 19 20 21 22
23 24 25 26 27 28 29
30 31
Who's Online Now
3 members (GETTEMANS, KenA, buckstix), 105 guests, and 4 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics36,541
Posts513,154
Members14,123
Most Online462
Aug 5th, 2016
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,827
Likes: 40
Buzz Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,827
Likes: 40
Many fine guns have barrels made of chopper lump, dove tail or demiblock construction. For example, many English guns such as Purdey are of chopper lump. Some American guns such as Winchester 21 are similar to chopper lump, but use a dove tail method. Browning superposed are of demiblock construction. These methods are all very similar and differ from monoblock construction in that with monoblock there is a weld point just anterior to the chamber where barrels are joined to the monoblock. Examples of this sort of construction are many such as beretta, browning citori and Perazzi just to name a few. Certainly, no one would argue that monoblock is a much cheaper method than the others. Sometimes however, cheaper methods can be better. Which methods do you consider better in terms of strength and safety?


Socialism is almost the worst.
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,393
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,393
About equal in all respects, I'd say
Mike

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,553
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,553
I really have come to not like the Beretta & others way of making the joint line on Mono construction so very visible,with a ring of "engraving".I would of thought they would be able to do a "seamless" job?
Franc

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,469
Likes: 3
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,469
Likes: 3
For a side by side ,choppres are certainly the strongest and with modern production methods on prodution guns I can not see that there sould be any difference in cost .The tubes themself will cost more to produce but this would be compensated for in the,reduction of cost in the assembly,due the the methods used, Cheap Spanish guns are good example . This is not to be confused with hand build barrels for high grade guns . As far as O/U's go ,using a mono block that can be precsision cast will cut machining time down thus reducing the overall cost to the customer. Up untill now there has been very little trouble with mono block barrels ,considering the number that have been produced.They are also expected to stand up to much heavier loads and to more prolonged useage than guns of an earlier generation .But then again manufactureres are not expecting these guns to last for a century.It is not in there interest to do so.

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598
Pieper invented the Monobloc, 1881. The barrels were screwed into the breech. His patent required a band on the muzzles.

His company moved to the demibloc after his death. I believe at the time, it was the cheaper method. So, by 1900 the demibloc was in use by Pieper.

Beretta adopted the monobloc in 1913, if Wilson is correct. I know there no Beretta guns that use it in a 1910 catalog. Another early user was Darne.

http://damascus-barrels.com/uspatentnom.html

http://www.google.com/patents?id=QiBMAAA...p;q&f=false

Sears 1897 catalog.


In this 1932 Beretta catalog, the M1010 is clearly a monobloc.


This is a 1938 Beretta catalog. It appears the barrels are soldered or brazed.


This is not a monobloc, but you get the idea.


Personally, I only care that it has passed proof.

Pete

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
In Pieper's original patent the bbls were not threaded in to the breech piece (mono-block). The breech piece had tapered holes through it & the bbls were inserted from the rear & seated in the tapers. There was thus a step down at the forward end of the breech piece, or what we generally refer to today as "Fretted". The tubes being turned down & threaded in to the breech piece & giving a smooth joint came at some later point. I do not know who, but suspect someone patented this method.
One of the big "Bragging Points" of the mono-block was it did not require brazing heat to assemble, but was a combination of mechanicl & soft solder, but had far greater strength than a normal assembly would if done with only soft solder. Conventional, Dovetail, Chopper & Shoe lumps all require brazing heats for maximum joint strength. The dovetail chopper lump as on the M21 & some others does not require brazing as the two are mechanically held together & pinned to prevent shifting. They can thus be soft soldered to complete the joint with no fear of bbl seperation.

Note that all of this has only to do with the strength of the connection between the two bbls & does not pertain to strength as regards to handling pressure of firing nor the connection of ribs etc.

Pieper did use a band at the muzzle in his oroginal patent, to say it was a "Requirement" is I think stretching the point. The Pieper hammer gun I have built with the later method of screwing in the bbls does not have a muzzle band. Also on mine the bbls have short stubs which extend only about half way through the breech piece, not all the way as on those pictured. He seems to have used several methods over the years. Mine is marked Modified Dianna.
A 1911 "Alfa" catalog still lists Pieper guns made on the mono-block principal, though they are simply referrd to as having a one-piece steel breech piece. I so far have never seen a reference to Pieper using the term mono-block.


Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598
The patent specifies link C. So if it part of the patent there is no stretching.

Originally Posted By: Henri Pieper
The double gun-barrel and joining means as described, consisting of the barrels b1, b2, breechpiece a, a1, a2,strips d e, and link c, substantially as set forth.

Certainly they kept changing the methods after Henri Pieper's death. If they modified the patent when their methods changed as would be usual, I can not tell.



Neither his patent nor the documents he submitted in Paris specify how the tubes are held in place.

Here are two images from a Société Anonyme Anciens Pieper Establissments (AEP) 1911 catalog

Long after his death, the company is still producing the Diana, the 1881 patent, monobloc


As well as this demibloc model.


I own a Diana (c 1883), a Modified Diana (c 1895), a later demibloc (1925) and a very late (1947) demibloc. When he was alive, Henri Pieper was a bit of a tinker. He was constantly experimenting with means to cut out steps and increase the automation of his factory.


Pete

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,827
Likes: 40
Buzz Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,827
Likes: 40
This is all extremely interesting to me. I was very unaware that monoblock has been around since the late 1800's. The Beretta Monoblock almost appears like that of modern day 'sleeving'. Is there any difference?


Socialism is almost the worst.
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 680
Likes: 3
Sidelock
*
Offline
Sidelock
*

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 680
Likes: 3
Would someone please describe the differences between chopper lump and demi-bloc construction in S x S guns? I thought they were different terminologies for the same thing.


Wild Skies
Since 1951
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,522
Likes: 2
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,522
Likes: 2
Mr. Miller: You are amazing. There is hardly a subject that comes up that you cannot contribute to in a meaningful way. I am printing your input on this subject and putting it in the file. And Pete from Illinois, your stuff is always interesting too. Thank you both!


[IMG]
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2021 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 0.321s Queries: 35 (0.019s) Memory: 0.8538 MB (Peak: 1.8990 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2022-01-17 07:29:14 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS