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WOW! Its seems that Turkey is turning out some pretty nice guns these days. In researching the Kimber SXSs and O/Us I found these sidelocks. Judging by the looks of the guns, I think this is same manufacturer that built the Kimbers.

They are all sidelock ejectors. The stocks (Turkish Walnut I guess?) looks great as does the checkering and drop points. The case colors also look beautiful and the overall fit and finish appears to be very good. They also come threaded for thin wall chokes.

Anybody know anything about this maker? Are there any dealers? What are the prices? I'd love to hear anything about them.

http://www.commando-arms.com/

Thanks for your help!

Adam


Color Cased SXS




Color Case O/U


Engraved O/U







Engraved SXS





Blued SXS

Very interesting looking ,I would like to know more about them also.

Pity they don't mention the price,eh?
I wouldn't buy one though,whatever they cost.
This English lad couldn't buy a Gun from Turkey.
Nice wood in the top one though
Where's jOe?....he's into Turkeys
Franc

The catalog shows Smith & Wesson on page 4 and Webley & Scott on page 26. All their contact info is in Turkey. Their email is info@commando-arms.com

http://www.commando-arms.com/catalog/

Pete

Just looks like a bunch of purtied up turkeys to me.

I have a S&W version. They are very well made from the ones I have seen. Mine is a boxlock with a trigger plate action similar to a Dickson. Unfortunately Huglu and a few other companies over there turned out a large number of junk guns and as a result every gunmaker over there is paying for it. S&W quit producing my gun due to bad sells which happened IMO due to where it was made. Had they chosen to sub it out to an Italian or Spanish maker the gun would still be in production I believe. It is a sleeper IMO. I bought it as a backup gun and now it is my go to gun. Take a serious look at one if you have a chance before you scoff.

Nice gun though. How much you paid for it wburns?

What I see, I really like!

Geno I paid 1200.

CDNN has them for $1190. They don't have any double trigger guns left, only single trigger.

http://www.cdnninvestments.com/

Pete

I wonder if they are making the "Field Grade" guns that Orvis is currently selling?

Orvis Field Grade Guns

I would be very curious to see what the pricing is on these guns. In the current economic environment, a well made and marketed gun from Turkey could pose some real competition to the lower end AyAs and Arrietas, as well as the likes of Fausti, Guerini and B. Rizzini.

Real competition to RBL you mean?

Yes they are Turkish. They are made by Huglu who also makes the ones that CZ puts their name on.

Forgot to say they are almost double in price to the CZ just for the Orvis name and straight grip vs prince of whales on the sxs. They are the same gun as the CZ Ringneck other than the grip style.

Looks very similar to a CZ Woodcook, but obviously done at a much higher grade.

THIS is beautiful. My goodness. Thanks Adam.

What do they use on the barrels,stove paint?

I have handled and shot a few Turkish guns. The old advice to "buy the gun, not the name" makes more sense with these than with some others. Some are very good, some are clunkers, but it's hard to tell until you have the gun in hand. My conclusion is that you can get a good one, but you'd better plan to keep it forever because the resale is just not there. These seem to take a bigger hit on resale than even the moderately priced Spanish guns.

Why would we assume that the single triggers on the expensive Huglu guns are any better than the single triggers on the first generation Huglu guns that just did not work?

I think anyone here that has seen previous Turkish built doubles has quite a bit of skepticism.

If I'm not mistaken, the O/U gun is the same of the Kimber Marias... not the CZ. These guns are built in the City of Huglu... but NOT built by the company Huglu.


I wouldn't at all be surprised to see Turkey as the next Spain. With many of the Spanish makers in trouble, shops in Turkey have will have opportunity to step up and take their place... IF THEIR GUNS ARE ON PAR, QUALITY WISE. Just think, Spain at one time was turning out a lot of junk and that left a lot of shooters with a bad taste in their mouth for Spanish doubles. But, today, Spain is turning out some real gems and their reputation has been, not only saved, but brought to higher levels that its ever been.

Hopefully, someone here has examined these new sidelocks from Turkey. I am sending emails to the company now regarding pricing.

Adam

I had the lock of a Kimber in my hands 4-5 yrs ago. It looked great. Not that London kinda quality, but then it was a $4k gun not a $40K gun.

The sales resistance is enormous.

Would you buy a car made in Turkey?

Just an FYI... the S x S Sidelock Ejector guns are priced starting at $2249 and the O & U Sidelock Ejector starting at $2799. These are their top-of-the-line guns, they also offer boxlocks, automatics and rifles. This is the same company that built the S & W Elite Gold guns. Here's a direct link to their on-line catalog:
http://www.commando-arms.com/catalog/index.html

I spent quite a bit of time with them at the 2010 SHOT Show. I tried to convince them to come to a few side by side events or send me guns to take to those events for folks to look at and shoot.

I've talked to several Turkish companies who make really nice guns. I think they can build better guns than they can market them.

The quality of the guns I handled at SHOT in 2010 were as good as a quality Spanish gun at considerably less money.

I remember in the 60s that there were guys telling me that a 101 Winchester wouldn't last because it was made in Japan. It's true that there are some junk guns that come out of Turkey but junk guns can be built anywhere.

I don't buy new guns but if I were buying a new double, it would almost certainly come from Turkey.

Dick Jones

How about De haan? Where do they fall in this pantheon of homage guns? The few I've seen had two many "cigar wrapper" bands on the barrels and overall a sort of imitation look in the cosmetics. However, when I look at the lock plate inletting, Adam, I wonder if practising an old craft can impose the standards of an old craft? Probably not but it would be nice to think so. I guess you dump in all the crappy "soft" parts you want and it still is at least reminiscent of a Brit.

jack

Interesting - where are you getting prices? The blued boxlock S&W clone looks nice.

I wasn't aware they were building for Webley and Scott, either.

Directly off their price list that they e-mailed me.

The prices posted above are correct. I just got the response from the company. And I must say, I am VERY impressed with their prices. If the quality is there, these are probably the best deals going.

I was looking at some used Spanish sidelocks but for the same money (or less in some cases) and I can order a new custom sidelock from this maker. I just wish I could get one in hand to examine!!!!

Have a look at these prices for yourself.

"Prestige" SXS Sidelock 20 or 16ga_____Ejector - $2249_____Extractor - $1999


"Prestige II" O/U 20ga Sidelock Ejector - $2799


"Elite" SXS Boxlock 12,16,20ga_____Ejector - $999_____ Extractor $829






I am not sure of the prices of the guns with more engraving but I hope to find out.





Here is their reply to my first email.

Dear Mr. Adam Stinson,

First of all, thank you for contacting with us and interesting in Komando Av Commando-Arms Ltd products.

At Komando Av Ltd Commando-Arms, we have been developing hunting, shooting shotguns, and equipments in Turkey since 1980. Our Company is both importer & exporter, and producer of shotguns and shot shells.

Please check our online catalog at: http://www.commando-arms.com//catalog/index.html

Of course, we can supply you our products and give you more information if you need. Please find the attached our pricelist and we will have new pricing which will be ready on next month.

Either you can buy the shotguns from us directly if you can give us an Import license which will be approved buy ATF, or we can send you our US partner contact details and you can get the gun from them; but they do not keep a lot of stocks and not all the models are available. I believe to get a license from ATF is not a big deal.

We usually work on customized products, and manufacture the gun in order to our valued customer needs and requests. So, if you can inform us which type of gun you need with specifications if you want, you can fill the below sample form out, and send us back, we can give you more information.

Regarding to payment terms; we accept 50% downpayment of the total amount with your purchase order, and the remaining balance 50% prior to shipment via bank transfer.

If you have any questions, or request further information and prices about our products, please feel free to contact us.

We are looking forward to hearing from you soon.

Best,
--
Sales Department

Adam, I got the same response as you. I've replied to this e-mail with attached price lists inquiring about their "US partner" so one here in the USA may be able to inspect and handle some of their offerings---I'm awaiting their response.

It should be pointed out that the prices we posted are guns with Grade #3 wood, they also have listed Grades 4 and 5. Grade 5 carries an upcharge of $940 over Grade 3. The pics of the sidelocks you posted appear to my eyes to be upgraded wood---but of course, I could be wrong.

I was wondering what grade the stocks in the photos would be considered. Like you said, GRADE 3 is standard, but it doesn't mention if the wood shown is upgraded or not. If I do end up ordering a gun, I'll most like upgrade the wood to their best grade.

I am seriously considering ordering both a boxlock and sidelock. The BIGGEST thing stopping me is the unknown factor of quality. Plus, I'd like to see close up photos of the engraving.

Adam

The sidelocks that first appeared were Turkish-made Kimbers, priced around $5K for a sxs. They did not sell. For that money, you can buy an AyA #2, and AyA already has an established reputation. I think the S&W Elites are OK at $1200, but they were originally priced over $2K. Had to be discounted heavily to sell. And the Ruffed Grouse Society bought a bunch of the Kimbers for banquet guns, to give to life sponsors etc. Far as I know, they got stuck with a bunch of them.

Turkey may be the next Spain, but it's not there yet. It could be in terms of quality I suppose, but the Turks haven't yet established the reputation than the Spanish makers have--and remember, it took the Spaniards a long time to overcome the effects of the cheap stuff they sent to this country, back 30-40 years ago. Those sidelocks may be good values in the mid-$2K range. Obviously lower priced than comparable Spanish sidelocks, except perhaps for Ugartechea. And at that price, they have a far better chance of selling than did the $5K Kimbers. The problem there was that the Turks already had a pretty good rep for inexpensive guns, mostly under $1K, thanks to CZ. But it's a big jump to $5K, and not many buyers were willing to take the plunge. If the S&W's and higher grade CZ's work out OK, then I think these guns may stand a chance as well--assuming they work as good as they look.

That would have been the Kimber "Valier" also marketed as a "Hatfield" recently...I had one, thought it was too heavy and gave it back..

Other than weight, was there anything else you disliked? Weight is not a major concern for me.... in fact, I like heavier guns.

Thanks for your input!

Adam

I would highly advise not to order just 2 guns. For the amount and price range you are better off working with their US partner or you guys as a group get an order together and then order.

JOhn Boyd
Quality Arms Inc
Houston

Adam, the "valier" I had was a pre-production gun. I pretty much liked everything ...about except the weight. It did need better finish work, and the later ones were much better. We have and shoot 3 other Turkish guns and are happy with all of them. I did have a single trigger DeHaan that I had probelms with, but Mark took it back and its double trigger replacement has had thousands of rounds through it, no probelms. Would I buy a car made in Turkey? YES! The Ford "transit Connect" van is made in Turkey. My neighbor has one, and its awesome. When the AWD Diesel version hits the shore.I'll prolly buy one..

That's correct; it was the Valier model. Initially, it was offered both with and without ejectors. I can't recall any of the gun writers doing a review on the Valier, but I remember one on the Kimber OU--the "Marias" model. I think written by Bruce Buck in Shooting Sportsman. That gun had problems firing reloads reliably and, I think, one brand of factory shells. Also quite heavy for a 20ga field gun. I believe Bruce found a couple other issues as well. And that gun sold for about $2K more, if I recall, than the Valier. I don't think they sold many.

Like alot of Turkish guns, quality control can be very lacking. We are speaking within the same maker. The same gun can be great and the next one a real mess.

John Boyd

Faux finished grade I suspect.

That's a good point, Joe. I wouldn't be surprised if all the beautiful marble-grain was just fake processing.

What American company did such a thing with their rifles back in the 90's? I can't remeber the process, whether "sprayed on" or "glued on" but the beautiful grain in their stocks was complete fabrication. And they were completely upfront about it, too, they weren't trying to fool anybody.

Damn! I can't remeber the company or the actual process.

Please let me know who the importer is. Thanks

Re the faux grain finish, perhaps you were thinking of Beretta

Beauty is sometimes only skin deep...I'm surprised Adam wouldn't suspect that.

Hmmmm. Turkish,you say?

Why, who would ever have thought that they'd have the potential to make good guns?

How can you get stuck with something you're giving away? Not enough recipients?
JR

JohnM, I don't mean to stir the wrong pot, but ask some Armenian people about the potentials of the Turks, especially when it comes to weapons.

They are damn good guns. I have three. O don't know where you buy yours, or maybe you have no first hand experience. Good thing is low demand keeps prices low.

Dear Krakow,

I make joke in good spirit. The first examples in this county from the Huglu Co-ops WERE abysmal. Whether that was because poor quality choices were made to import, or whether generally poor quality just was prevalent, will make an interesting research subject for some "definitive" future article by a gunwriter, no doubt: "Turkish Best"?

However, some time ago the Czech's and Italians were reported to be investing training, machinery and QC into the Turkish gun industry. It began producing sub-assemblies for 'name' European brands. About then, good reports began to come in from users of De Haan's guns. He certainly wrestled with their QC and the cultural/language barriers, but the best guns he got and retailed pointed towards the future that is being realized. Full-blown quality sidelocks do not appear to be so far fetched, now.

Remember, in the early days of this BBS, some folks opined that they could load a pickup truck with name-brand Spanish doubles and they'd be worth nothing but scrap. The really early first run of Turkguns were damn near uncomfortably close to that. However, a decade-plus later in a globalized market, it is apparent that there may be some very attractive choices now available. That serious gun-dealer importer/export folks have weighed in here positively with purchase opinion and advice is a good sign, as well.

Anyway, when i saw the 'turk gun' string, i had to smile. It's a long way from the controversial days of Uggie Model 30's being imported and sold for 300.00 dollars, but it would seem that now the international community gathered here can deliver some really, really good experience and knowledge on current trends -- the faults, virtues, prices and the rest of story, too.

As to the political history of the Turks, right up to the Gates of Vienna and beyond, it was a tough deal for those whom they conquered and ruled. One of my long-time clients was the daughter of a family that fled the Armenian mass-murders, to America. She had first-hand stories. Her mother kept a double-barreled shotgun loaded in the house for the rest of her life, even after they achieved financial security in an upscale neighborhood.

That cultural ferociousness was still notable in the Gallipoli campaign, as most of this well-read and educated group here would know. It didn't wane much, either with time. In the Korean War, it was reported the Northern aggressors feared facing the Turks more than any single UN force. However, a platoon of Ethiopians armed with .303 Enfields did pretty well, too, They held the walls of a battered farmhouse in the middle of a mass Chinese human wave attack pretty much for a day, and marched out when it was over. Nothing like a tough culture to make tough infantrymen.

As to the Turks having a gun-making heritage, there was a traveling museum exhibit a couple of decades ago, The Winged Horsemen, which displayed royal booty obtained by the Poles when they captured the Sultan's Field Headquarters intact. In the exhibit was a rack of muzzleloading flintlock rifles, with swamped barrels, peep sights, set triggers, crisp deep rifling, and exquisite workmanship. They were of large bore, and meant for long-distance military sniping, at a time when Europeans pretty much thought fifty yards with smoothbore muskets was the useful range for warfare.

We tend to take European and Western technical and cultural superiority for granted and forever. But the rest of the world has gone to a tough school, since WW2. The 21st Century is going to be very interesting. Sometimes I think we have no more idea of our future, than did any of the self-assured Imperial European Belle Epoch's citizens during the first decade of the 20th Century

However, and on a more upbeat note, Krakow K., I DO know where a nice little proven 28ga DeHann SxS, DT, ejector dwells. Just the perfect small-bird gun for a feeble old tottering bird hunter -- who possibly could put it to brush and rush usage, y'know? Happy guns, powder smoke, dogs, and good whiskey to all who would share those joys.

Now, I really really gotta git, but it's been fun to visit..Adios.

Adios, amigo! Vaya con Dios!

Lots of interest here on these. If you guys really want some of these, get a group order up and I can handle the importing for you.

John Boyd

Still waiting to hear back about the U.S. importer/dealer. They've replied with emails that don't really answer my questions so I might just call.

Adam

What kind of importing fee are we talking about John. You can PM me.
Thanks

Adam, can you get me a price on the Premier engraved grade 10 w/ the highest grade of walnut they offer? Also is it available in a double trigger model?
Thanks

Correction. The Model is the prestiege clss-eell.
Thanks

Generally the fee to me is $350.

Best

John
Qualty Arms

Does anyone but me think that this is likely a scam?

I'd certainly insist on some kind of business references from the company before sending any funds.

Caution, gentlemen, caution.

I spoke with their "US partner" yesterday, this importer has dealt with them with only their low end hardware store type guns--not their high end sidelocks, but has visited their factory in Turkey and seen the sidelocks there. He described the high end sidelocks that he examined as "they compare favorably with a Holland & Holland". These were his words, not mine.

Thanks John sounds good. Let's see how this develops. Shotgun: I talked to Mark DeHann and he knows the Mfg. and says he is honest, but he hasn't handled any of their guns, so he doesn't know how good/bad they are. Hope this helps.

John, does the $350 fee to you mean that there will be additional shipping, excise, and other charges ? Or is that the all inclusive fee to import ?

I also spoke with the dealer yesterday. My experience pretty much mimics "Wild Skies". He wasn't much help. Though he did say it would run about $350 extra or so for shipping and additional transfer fees.

At this point, I guess the only thing to do is call the factory directly.

Adam

beautiful

I think you are looking at all "hardware store type guns".....if the guy compared them "favorably with a Holland and Holland" I'd have hung up on him real quick.

Has anyone ever seen a Turkish gun that was even remotely close in fit, finish and overall quality to a London best? I have not.

Maybe one that's worn out like your H&H....

Yeah that old sad thing.....I sure do suffer carrying her. Ever get the action straighten out on your old Scott? You know the one that has the bent bar in an amateur attempt at putting it back on face.

Like you...I honestly don't know what you are talking.

Ignorance, in your case, is bliss J0e.

This just to dispel any doubts about the company: Kommando at IWA 2011

JC

P.S.: I was invited to visit them in N�rnberg by their Export Manager, but he forgot to enclose airfare.

Got to love that Turkish walnut though, beautiful stuff!!!

Dayrl: The $350 is my fee. Any shipping, freight, duty, insurance, broker or government fees are additional.

John

John, is that FOB your shop, or delivered to the buyer ?

joe you are a moron i have handled skb's Holland and it is wonderful.what do you get out of spewing this crap.im really confused at your motives.i think every one must ignore you at home so you try and take it out on strangers on a BB.your poor wife (what must your wife, children, and in laws think)mc

That right Sweet pee...and I bet yer from San Franciz'co.

Truth is we'd all be better off if Californoa fell off in the ocean.

so. California might be a clue!we wont fall off into the ocean as long as your out there sucking.mc

So you think you look cool calling someone a moron and making comments about their family.

I have a couple questions. How are the barrels finished? I can't tell if they are hot blued or if they have that satin black we have seen on some Turkish guns (yuck). Any idea what the boxlock or sidelock in a 16b weighs?

The barrels on my s&w are blued not blackened. They are very well done.

That old Holland of Steves aint too bad, I watched him shoot a Polish double with it one day, 2 shots, one bird........Course it was an unusual day in NW kansas, the wind was blowing..

Mark--

My Smith & Wesson 20 ga. weighs in at 6 lbs. 6 ozs, with an English stock and 26" barrels. IMHO, it's a field gun, not a game gun knockoff. It has blued barrels, like, wkburns'. But if you go to the AKUS website, you can spec out lots of different choices, including the black that you don't like.

One caveat about the weight of a 16 ga. As I understand from Mark DeHaan, the Huglu (not the commando/akus) guns in 16 ga are made up using 12 ga barrel stock, so the any weight savings over 12 ga in the action is lost to greater barrel thickness. Don't know how that's done in the AKUS factory. The commando catalog certainly suggests a weight savings for the 16 ga., but it would be worth looking into if that's what you want.

John Boyd--

quick question about your offer. Does your $350 price include aggregating and holding the group's money and negotiating a volume discount with Commando, or is it limited to providing the importing services that TRI and other do for (ahem) a different price?

Thank you. I'm not into new guns really, but the boxlock at around a grand piqued my interest and appears to be a good buy in a 16, cosmetically at least. Basically it's the S&W Elite but in a 16. If it weighs more than 6 1/2 lbs though, there is no shortage of new but heavy 16b field guns out there in that price range to choose from, such as the CZ Bobwhite, etc...

I felt that what I explained was clear. However, the fee is for the importing of the guns: ATF forms, picking up the guns at the airport, posting the bond for the guns. Shipping to you and other fees to customs, broker, airport fees, etc are not included.

John Boyd