doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Browning Superposed 20 ga. upgrades, & Superlights

I have been considering purchasing a 20 gauge Browning superposed for quite some time. I have a pretty good understanding of the market, and I love the superposed Browning for many reasons.

I'd really be interested in some informed opinions and good advice about the market for "upgraded" versions of these guns. For instance, it is my understanding that some of the engravers who did factory work on these, like Angelo Bee and others, also took superposed shotguns... and upgraded them to "Diana" or "Midas" grade guns, with similar or same engraving, wood, etc.

Generally speaking, are these "upgraded" shotguns worth less or more? Have you seen quality of the work on these guns as equal, or better than the Browning sold versions? Do I have the wrong understanding about these guns being "different" in the market than factory to retailer sold Browning superposed shotguns (meaning, is a Midas a Midas, as longs as it looks like a Midas, and engraved by the same person Browning used?)

One last question...Are there any mechanical changes or core differences, other than weight and stock configuration, between a superposed lightning and a superposed superlight, in a 20 gauge gun?

Thank you in advance for your wisdom, and your thoughtful responses.

OK, here goes
Some are JUNK, some are GREAT
Some were done in Japan by skilled folks and some by hackers.
Some were done here and most are a mess.
A "Bee" upgrade is wonderful.

I really prefer the Diana over the Midas except for the silly rabbit on the trigger guard.


A superlight has some thinner metal differences also there is a difference between the Lightning and the Standard.

Mike

Pretty sure the Superlight has more rounded corners ... that they removed metal on the outside as well as the inside. TT

The Superlight had the lower corners rounded all the way from the front to the back of the receiver, just like the late Citori's. I don't know about any inside lightening. The standard and Lightning had sharp corners on the lower corners of the reciever and they were rounded only at the front of the reciever for about an inch an a half or so. The Lightning had a hogged out slot in the buttstock to lighten it.

I've seen a few upgrades. A couple Midas 20g guns done by Angelo. The engraving was great, the woodwork (undoubtable done by someone else) was so-so. I dunno if I'd do an upgrade. Probably get into it about 3/4 as much or more as a real one and it'd probably be worth 1/2 as much.

I've been looking at a 20 gauge Angelo bee upgrade. It is beautifully done, the upgrade includes the engraving, wood and checkering.

It appears as the same engraving pattern as any midas grade I have seen thus far. I'm just trying to get a bead on whether this would appreciate at the same level as any other superposed midas grade. This is why I am seeking the opinions of those who are trading in these, enjoy collecting them, and understand the market and guns better.

on the other hand.....

I am also quite intrigued by the superposed superlight 20 gauge. It looks like a great field gun! I like the superposed complexity and solidity. From time to time I take out my little Citori ultralight, fixed chokes, a schnabel forend, and english style stock. I have really enjoyed it for its pointability and simplicity. But...the Citori just doesn't seem to soothe the itch.

Chuck,
Yours is very helpful information related to the upgrades. BTW, I've enjoyed reading your posts over time...I'm a spanish sidelock fever sufferer....
Best
Jim

Jim,
Hope that Spanish sidelock fever is under control. There are some beauties in that end but the values seem to drop pretty steep after new purchase. Although, I think I've detected a change in the used Spanish market on the better labels. They seem to hold a better value lately. Larry Brown seems to know that market well.

I had a 20g Super 2 bbl set that my brother-in-law ended up with. I once had asperations of upgrading it to a Pointer grade. I think that grade is one of the more desireable grades. If you have Super fever, you'll need the super expensive Superposed book by Schwing. I snatched one for $25 not knowing they were then around $125. Shortly after that, they went crazy, some nuts were asking $400-500, but I doubt they sold at those prices.

I'll look around for the book. I'd like a good source. I have time and enjoy the hunt.

I've purchased most every gun I've ever owned used, so I've been pretty lucky, even in the Spanish area, thus far. But I try to be as informed as possible about the "market".

Related to Spanish sidelocks...I'm a big fan of mid 1950's Victor Sarasqueta's. I have a very sweet little 12E, 20 gauge, and a 9E,12 gauge. I feel lucky to own both.

I've traded around in others like Grulla, AYA, Arrieta, and I've enjoyed them, each for different reasons. I just like the history and the quality price ratio that those old Sarasqueta's deliver.

An upgrade is always going to be an upgrade, even if done by one of the original "factory" engravers. An upgrade will never have the marketplace cachet of a rightious original gun, no matter what some of the big dealers may say about what they are trying to peddle.

"Generally speaking, are these "upgraded" shotguns worth less or more? Have you seen quality of the work on these guns as equal, or better than the Browning sold versions? Do I have the wrong understanding about these guns being "different" in the market than factory to retailer sold Browning superposed shotguns (meaning, is a Midas a Midas, as longs as it looks like a Midas, and engraved by the same person Browning used?)"

As a former Browning Super collector, I would not even look at an upgrade and even a refinished salt wood gun of which i have been offered a few. As to Angelo Bee, I wouldn't purchase anything he worked on but that is my opinion of his work.
Superposed Super Light Weights or Superlights are a very interesting history, initially introduced in Field 12 and 20 they have weight modifications that resulted in 12 ga 26&1/2"(65cm) gun at about 6# 8oz and 20 ga of 5# 10oz. Later after they were discontinued and after the P Grades failed, they were re-introduced but the weight was substantially more with a 20 ga Pointer I had just over 6#'s. I sold all of them and kept one original 20 gauge field Grade at 5# 10oz, surely one of the most delightful o/u to ever carry in the field.

"I've been looking at a 20 gauge Angelo bee upgrade. It is beautifully done, the upgrade includes the engraving, wood and checkering.

It appears as the same engraving pattern as any midas grade I have seen thus far. I'm just trying to get a bead on whether this would appreciate at the same level as any other superposed midas grade. This is why I am seeking the opinions of those who are trading in these, enjoy collecting them, and understand the market and guns better."

My opinion is to purchase an original Midas Grade checking the serial # with the Browning Historian, Glen Jenson to confirm authenticity and have an expert evaluation of the gun in hand.
A Higher grade Super is not just engraving and wood work but consists of varying degrees of better internal work that depends on the grade that is not visible without taking the gun apart.

"I am also quite intrigued by the superposed superlight 20 gauge. It looks like a great field gun! I like the superposed complexity and solidity. "

These are great guns but be aware that they are NOT suitable for steel shot and are only chambered in 2&3/4", a few have 28" barrels but seems a waste on these guns. I have liked all I have had but a 12 gauge Pigeon was probably my favorite!-Dick