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#215671 02/01/11 05:01 PM
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At Atkin, Grant & Lang we are working on a 'Colonial' grade double rifle. It is to be a long-bar top-lever boxlock with Purdey bolts and a third grip (possibly a Purdey concealed bite).

Stock will be pistol grip with cap and cheek-piece, forend probably Anson pushrod or maybe Gibbs grip catch. Double triggers. Border engraving only with engraved pins.

Iron leaf sights and ramp foresight.

The intention is to produce a rifle that Professional Hunters and regular tourist hunters who want a classic handling and looking British DR but can't afford one.

We aim to hit the US market at around $25,000.

We intend an initial model in .470 NE and a scaled down version in .375.

Discussions at present are:
1. Do we use .375 H&H rimless or .375 flanged?
2. Is there a market for a .450 calibre as well?
3. Would American buyers be interested in 9.3x74R?
4. Will anyone buy it? (We think so as there is a gap in this range right now)

Any contributions to these discussions most gratefully received.

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1. Flanged for sure

2. 450...yes as Hornady is making the ammo and the gun could be built trimmer than a 470.

3. Not really as this market is filled up with cheaper European guns.

4. If the quality and style is good I would buy one or two.

5. I would prefer chopper lump barrels and would pay more to get them.

I would love to see a good quality rifle similar to a Webley boxlock double. The market exists as you would be competing with Heym, Searcy (no comparison) and that's about it.

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For $25,000 it'd have to be alot better than a 'colonial grade' to match other makers.
You're almost up to the price range of Searcy's Rigby/Bissel Rising Bite Sidelock of $32,000
Then when you add on the importation and a markup for the local distributor... It just doesn't add up.

Mr Baily Bradshaw in Texas is building a falling block double rifle up to a 500 NE for less than your bacic price.
Then when you bring the contiental makers in to the fray, it's getting ugly quickly.

I have 13 DR's now and they include Ferlach 'Best Quality'
A. Henrys, Searcy and others.
This is now a world wide market place at the click of a button.

Peter Taksdale formerly of Purdys (IIRC)is building a large bore DR C (Colonial)class for $8500.

Perhaps you can source actions from Merkel as 'Rigby' of California does?

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By 'Colonial' grade I mean the value will be built into the actions and barrels. The gun will be very 1920s British in style and not based on a continental action.

Thank you for your input. Clearly we must aim to do better than the opposition in our price class.

I was involved at the very beginning with Peter's project but decided it was not the quality of rifle I wished to offer and walked away. It is an Effebi built Italian standard model. We will be building ours in the UK on an action of our own design, based on the long-bar Webley type boxlock DR action. I wish Peter well with his project but we are aiming at better quality and therefore a higher price point.

Last edited by Small Bore; 02/01/11 08:47 PM.
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It will be interesting to see what happens! There is always room in the vault for a quality rifle. I have no doubt that your's will be among the better ones available.

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A screw grip, long bar, on a scaled .450 frame, say 10.5 lbs would be a winner I think.


http://www.bertramandco.com/

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My PH this last summer in RSA said his older brother (also a PH) was getting a DR that a British maker was making marketed towards the working professional at a do-able price. My guy couldn't remember the makers' name, he isn't as gun focused as I am.
At Reno I saw them both, but forgot to ask the elder one about the rifle. His younger brother said it was in the country (RSA?) but had one more paperwork hurdle before he took possesion.
Perhaps it is an example of this Atkin, Grant, and Lang?
From what I read at AccurateReloading.com, there are lots of options at well under $25K. Of course none of them British. Alas even at those prices they are not an option for me, anytime soon.
Lou M


If it weren't for the wonder of electricity, you'd be reading this post by candle light!
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Correction:
"Perhaps it is an example of this Atkin, Grant, and Lang?"
I asked, and I my PH's brother's new rifle is an Anderson Wheeler, .500 NE.
Someday, someday....

So in answer to Smallbore's original question:
Heck yes. 9.3x74R < my preference < .577 NE

Lou M.

Last edited by LouM; 02/05/11 05:08 PM.

If it weren't for the wonder of electricity, you'd be reading this post by candle light!
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Dig...Have you thought about 7 x 57R with perhaps an optional chambering in 7 x 65R? This sort offering may provide the oportunity to perhaps utilize the same barrel blanks. That comment is a bit off topic yes but trying to find a 7 x 57R SxS D/R is not exactly easy and there might be a market for it.

In regards to your question about offering a .450 calibre..what did you have in mind? .450 No. 2 with its more robust rim thickness? (the .450 No. 2 is of course in the same general class as .470 NE). The 9.3 x 74R...there is a lot of competition from Euro makers in the calibre. I think that a .375 flanged offering would be an automatic due to the popularity and desirabilty of rifles in this chambering. Have you considered offering a 450/400 3 inch? This offering overlaps a bit with the .375 in engergy but there is the romance and reputation of this cartridge due to Taylors and others authors writings. Anyway...If I had the means to...I would consider a DR in 7 x 57R or 450/400 three inch. My two cents. Jeff S.

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I'm with Jeff, 7x57R (7x65R) makes a lot of sense. But the rifle in such a small bore should be light enough for easy stalking or even mountain hunting.

With kind regrds,
Jani

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And to try to answer the original four questions:

1. Both;
2. I'm sure there is (I would prefer it over .470 myself);
3. They already are! (Considering how many 9.3s are sold there);
4. I don't see why not.

With kind regards,
Jani

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30-40 krag
there is a void for a 30 cal. rifle here that you can get readily available ammo for. 30-40 is still pretty easy to get and way less than RWS or NORMA which usually are the only game for rimmed metrics.
just my 2cents


Brian
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I would consider availability of ammo in your decision. Hornady now makes ammo for doubles and that is a BIG plus when purchasing a DR.
I'd choose a 450/400 NE 3" and a 450 NE 3 1/4"
Another plus for the .450 is availability of cheap .458 bullets which can be used to reload so the owner can shoot more, practice and enjoy his rifle.


With a fine gun on his arm, a man becomes a sporting gentleman, both on the field and off.
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Dig,

Here is my feedback to your questions in no particular order.

1. I think there is no market for a 9.3x72 or 9.3x74 double rifle, especially not at $25000. These rounds are so light they can be built on shotgun boxlocks and for $6000 you can obtain just such a gun. You'd also be competing with fine vintage drillings at fraction of the cost that fulfill this market.

2. I believe that high dollar guns and handloading do not always go hand in hand. I suggest you stick with calibers that are able to be procured off the shelf and that your guns are regulated to off the shelf product. I can't understand/envision a market for a double gun that shoots anything less than .375 in the pricing you're intending to hit.

3. Instead of attempting to cannibalize a market that you'll be unlikely to penetrate heavily (you're competing against Krieghoff and others), why not create a new market? Think about the idea of a modern homage to the classic British Paradox gun. I would think that someone could even make screw in chokes that feature the ratchet rifling so you could truly go from an upland gun to a large game gun easily, with better accuracy, all the while carrying a very traditional British arm that would accurately convey the AG&L mystique. I do not believe any firm makes a paradox gun today and it is ironic, since a paradox gun today could be very powerful and versatile in a way the originals could not. (e.g. screw in rifled chokes, heavier proof loads, etc)

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