doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Adjacent State Shotgun Sale ?

I don't think Larry's point is inconsistant with the idea of an Illinois resident coming over to an adjacent state and buying from an individual there by using a dealer with an FFL as the 'transfer agent'. What's wrong with that?...Geo

From the BATF site,he,the buyer would have to go to a dealer,it cannot be done by unlicensed individuals;

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html#gca-unlicensed-transfer
Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]



Q: From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?

A person may only acquire a firearm within the person�s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee�s premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

The buyer has two options.
A) Come to your state and you go through a dealer there
B) Ship it to a FFL in his state and let him do the 4473 (and NICS call) there

Remember they are here to help you!
http://www.youtube.com/user/ATFHQ

What Dave posted is what my Firearms Regs says, almost verbatim.

George, the question had to do with selling the gun to a nonresident without using a licensed dealer.

IME, there is absolutely zero paper record of any person-to-person long gun exchange.....regardless of what planet in the universe they reside on. I don't have, and am not required to have , a single shred of evidence of where, how or from whom I acquired any of my long guns.

Agonizing over selling a shotgun to an individual, unless you're being framed by your federal government as Randy Weaver was, is akin to worrying about the mattress tag you removed.

A gentleman in Texas was railroaded because he sold a gun to an Illegal Alien, that had a (provided as part of the Sting ?) Texas Drivers Liecense.

The BATFE is general in lower than a pregnant cockroach, so is the Judge in question, the Federal Procescutors, and the Jurors,IMO.

liecense.Peaceable Texans for Firearms Rights
website: http://www.io.com/~velte/pt.htm

In Federal District Court on July 20, 2010, the ATF won a conviction from an Austin jury that defies logic and reason. In a trial before Federal Judge Sam Sparks, government lawyers conceded Texas resident Paul Copeland did not know his buyer was an illegal alien, but the jury they should convict him anyway because he "had reasonable cause to believe" he was selling to an illegal alien because the two men and a boy who were present at his table at the time of the sale: 1) were Hispanic, 2) spoke Spanish, and 3) wore cowboy clothing. And the jury did as asked. Assistant U.S. Attorney Jennifer Freel acted as lead prosecutor in the case.

The firearm transaction at issue occurred on January 16, 2010, at a gunshow at the North Austin Events Center, at 10601 N. Lamar Blvd., in Austin, Texas. Undercover ATF agents followed Mr. Huerta, his son, and another Hispanic male, Hipolito Aviles, around the "Texas Gunshow" that day, and claimed to observe Huerta�s transaction. Austin P.D. used Copeland�s case as the reason to close down the gunshow, leading to a protest by Austin residents in front of APD headquarters on January 25.

Mr. Copeland is a 56 year old Cedar Creek resident and Vietnam veteran who liked to buy, sell, and trade firearms as a hobby. On January 16, however, he had the misfortune to sell a handgun to Leonel Huerta Sr., who spoke both English and Spanish. Huerta Sr. negotiated his purchase from Copeland in English, showing Copeland his Texas Driver�s License. At Copeland�s trial Huerta admitted on the witness stand, that he is in the country illegally, (Huerta Sr. had previously admitted this fact to Immigration & Customs Enforcement (ICE) Special Agent Leo Buentello). ATF Agent Shawn Kang claimed he saw Huerta later hand off the gun to Aviles. Despite these admissions, Huerta Sr. was never arrested, charged, or deported. Instead, his presence at the gunshow was used to entrap an American citizen into an unwitting violation of a federal gun control law. Huerta Sr., who is a resident of the City of Austin, appeared as a witness at the trial, admitted he was in the country illegally before federal prosecutors and a federal judge, yet he was allowed to leave the courtroom under his own power. To date Huerta Sr. has not been prosecuted for his purchase, possession, or disposition of the handgun he bought from Copeland, while Copeland is now a convicted felon.

"Instead of busting the illegal alien for buying, they bust the citizen for selling," commented Paul Velte, attorney and founder of Peaceable Texans for Firearms Rights, a gun-owners rights advocacy group from Austin. Velte asked, "who was in a better position to know the buyer�s immigration status, the buyer or the seller?" He also said, "What happened to Paul Copeland should enrage all Americans. The Federal Government is using illegal aliens to entrap citizens lawfully exercising their right to sell firearms. The illegal alien walks free, but the citizen gets convicted. The same government charged with controlling immigration is the one using illegal immigrants to attack its own citizens. Does this make any sense? It makes no sense unless the purpose is to discourage attendance at gunshows and frighten citizens from selling their firearms to other citizens."

Velte pointed out that "There is no way for a citizen to know who is here legally or not. In fact, under Austin�s �sanctuary city� policy, not even the police officer at the door of the gunshow was allowed to ask a person�s immigration status, yet the average Texan inside the show is expected to assume that a person standing before them with a Texas driver�s license is in the country illegally just because they look Mexican and speak Spanish." Velte noted that the federal government�s lawsuit against Arizona was based on that very type of conduct: Concluding someone could be here illegally based on their looks or their language. Velte said gun owners in his group are outraged, and they want to know:

1. Why is the illegal alien who purchased the gun, Leonel Huerta Sr., still living in Austin?

2. Why does he still have a Texas Driver�s license?

3. Why is ATF using illegal aliens to set up and convict American citizens?

4. What has he been promised for his cooperation?

5. Why has he not been prosecuted? He committed three distinct crimes: he purchased a firearm knowing he was an illegal alien, he possessed the firearm, and he transferred the handgun to another illegal alien (Hippolito Aviles, who was convicted and given time served on June 30, 2010).

6. Why has Huerta Sr. not been deported?

Judge Sparks sentenced Copeland on August 27 to six months confinement and 24 months of probation, and called Copeland "a liar" for not admitting guilt. ATF confiscated Copeland�s entire gun collection and initiated forfeiture proceedings. Copeland was also fired from his job due to the indictment, and he would have lost his home to foreclosure, if not for his family stepping in to pay his mortgage while he serves his sentence.
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That was a good one

Mike, my tendency would be to agree with you . . . except for the fact that the potential buyer is from IL, where they have some very "different" firearms laws. If, for whatever reason, the buyer should run afoul of the law, it might rebound on the seller.

Can't speak for myself as there is a paperwork trail for anything over 50 yrs old (bound book)and I wouldn't dare risk it.Kinda like my freedom,nice wine and sex with women,my understanding is none of that available in a federal prison.

For a unlicensed individual the risk/reward is different,but from Jerry's-the sellers side he get the funds one way or the other.The buyer has to pay $35 (should be no tax on the gun value) and he might be able to find some dealer who would do it cheaper.

This is Ill, but NJ has the same restrictive gun laws.

False Imprisonment
New Jersey�s gun laws aren�t merely restrictive, they are gratuitously punitive


http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/258108/false-imprisonment-robert-verbruggen?page=1

Guess he could check his Missouri visa card.....