doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Colt 1878 for first purchase

I agree TT, feel like I made the right decision by asking here first before committing. Keep the replies coming everyone, I learn a bit more with each post. I'll have to find where i read about the proof marks. IIRC, they were in the area of the production # on the barrel assembly. In the meantime, I'll take suggestions for smiths that others here have used for this type of evaluation. Again, thanks for so graciously helping a novice!

I had a question about a Colt revolver with Wells Fargo markings so I called Kathleen Hoyt who was the Historian at that time. I also took the opportunity to ask her about shotgun manufacture. She told me the 1878s were made in England and the 1883s were made here in Hartford and there were records to prove this.
Jim

Yesterday I called Colt and spoke with Beverly Haynes, the Colt Historian. Her take is the guns were assembled in the Colt factory. She is aware they purchased the barrels. No English connection that she is aware of.

Translated from: http://heuse.spahistoire.info/henriheuse.html
Riga arrived in the states to help with the 1876 Philadelphia Exposition. He stayed here and became an importer / salesman for Belgian barrel makers. In the 1940's his son was interviewed by a writer for a small sports magazine and explained how damascus was made and his family's role in importing the tubes.

Here is a Colt 1878 with Chain Damascus. The Belgians produced Chain Damascsus. To the best of my knowledge the English never produced Chain Damascus.



All I am saying here is that Colt has their wires crossed. If the guns were produced and assembled in England, then they had to have English proof marks. When I look at my 1878, I can not find any English marks. Can anyone find them on another gun?

Pete

At least one set of tubes went through the London Proof House. A first year production 1883 hammerless with London Proof House 'Rampant Lion' preliminary proof mark; no marks on the flats

Pete, can you show a few more pics of your grade 3 and, if I'm not being out of line, what kind of money did you have to pay for her?

I sent you an email.

Pete

Pete:
If I'm following your line of thinking here your take is everything but the barrels for the 1883s were produced in Hartford. This would be in agreement with what Kathleen Hoyt told me when I spoke to her several years ago.
I never asked specifically about the barrels as I assumed Colt had imported then as did most of the domestic shotgun manufacturers.
N.B: Inre. to the British proofs on the Colt barrels. If a British Company imported a Colt Shotgun it would have required proofing before it could be sold just like any British made shotgun.
Jim

Jim, I am a bit confused. I thought , here, you were saying the Model 1878 was made in England.

Here from above----------I had a question about a Colt revolver with Wells Fargo markings so I called Kathleen Hoyt who was the Historian at that time. I also took the opportunity to ask her about shotgun manufacture. She told me the 1878s were made in England and the 1883s were made here in Hartford and there were records to prove this.
Jim


Now, are you saying I misunderstood and that neither the 1878 or the 1883 was made in England ? If the 1878 was made in England, what is the proof ? No proof marks, no factory history confirmation that I have seen.

Just an observation here. I think there's nothing about the 1878 that couldn't have been built by American gunsmiths (aside from the barrels, most likely). That said, I'm puzzled by the lack of scholarship on these early Colt shotguns. Most of the other makers have had at least one devoted scholar (a couple, notably Walt, are regulars here) dive deeply into their manufacturing history and sales records. Furthermore, I'm under the impression that many of the most skilled craftsmen moved from town to town, factory to factory, and maker to maker during careers that spanned many decades. The 1878 was Colt's first foray into scatterguns (which is the cause of some of this speculation), and surely, if they were building them in Hartford, they would have needed to steal a few workers away from other companies. On the flipside, surely some Colt workers would have eventually migrated to Lefever, Ithaca, Parker, etc. And wouldn't some of the fine research done on other doubles have turned up more information on that kind of cross-pollination by now? I'm struck by just how thin the details available to us seem to be, particularly as we're talking about one of the two most famous makers in history. Thoughts on this? TT

Some have said they believe there are barrelsnwith English proof marks, thats how that started. I've tried to find the article that I thought referenced English proofs on some of these guns, but I've been unsuccessful. I have a sneaking suspicion that I may have glanced at an article about the 1878 DA revolver while looking for shotgun info and just have mixed that up in my head. Perhaps others here are doing the same as the 1878 DA revolver does in fact have English proofs, etc.