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Joined: Feb 2008
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Raimey and Kuduea, Thanks to both of you! Raimey, I'll get the camera out tomorrow and see if I can figure out how to do that. Mike
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Joined: Jan 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Raimey was right insofar as most of these garden guns were built for the 9mm Flobert rimfire. apparently this gun has been rechambered to 9.1x40R and converted from rim- to centerfire. Why? Please consider the proof date, September 1918. WW1 was still going on and civilian ammunition like the 9mm Flobert was largely unavailable. In this situation someone having some reloadable brass, a supply of primers and black powder was at a real advantage. My guess: Someone ordered this gun from one of the small Zella_Mehlis makers, who still had prewar parts in stock, but had it converted to centerfire and rechambered. My thoughts were the same. But there is one more, G under the crown means it was rifled barrel definetly. This barrel has been not only re-chambered, but overbored to smooth bore either.
Geno.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Geno: As far as I can tell, equating "Crown" over "G" with rifled is an old wives' tale. Crown over S notes proof with schrot/shot while Crown over G notes proof with a geschoss or solid projectile. For several proof steps, the Austrians used a solid projectile for both smooth bore & rifled tubes. Typically a solid projectile is associated with rifling but not always.
"In barrels designed to fire a single projectile-that is, rifled barrels-a soft lead cylinder is used as a projectile." Wirnsberger page 39.
Kind Regards,
Raimey rse
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Raimey is right again, but why refer to Austrian proof rules?Here are the original German 1892 rules. If you can decypher the old German "Fraktur", you will note: Crown/S stands for a barrel intended for shot, while crown/G ia a barrel proofed for an "Einzelgeschoß" = bullet. Rifling is not mentioned here. If you like and send a PM, I can email the original prooftables, containing all the gauge numbers, their diameter in mm and the bp sevice and proof loads.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Geno: As far as I can tell, equating "Crown" over "G" with rifled is an old wives' tale. Crown over S notes proof with schrot/shot while Crown over G notes proof with a geschoss or solid projectile. For several proof steps, the Austrians used a solid projectile for both smooth bore & rifled tubes. Typically a solid projectile is associated with rifling but not always.
"In barrels designed to fire a single projectile-that is, rifled barrels-a soft lead cylinder is used as a projectile." Wirnsberger page 39.
Kind Regards,
Raimey rse I'd look at the photos. MikeV said probably rifle converted from rf to cf in this barrel and I guess as I told before this barrel been overbored to smooth bore. I never saw factory made small caliber rifle with smooth bore and proof mark crown/G, all this smooth bore rifle been overdrilled.
Geno.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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I'd look at the photos. MikeV said probably rifle converted from rf to cf in this barrel and I guess as I told before this barrel been overbored to smooth bore. I never saw factory made small caliber rifle with smooth bore and proof mark crown/G, all this smooth bore rifle been overdrilled. Geno, please reread my posts above. These garden guns were usually built to be free of licensing. This required a maximum rifled barrel in 6mm /.22" or a smothbore of 9mm maximum bore diameters. A 9mm rifled barrel required either a hunting licence to be even carried outside of approved shooting ranges. That's why these garden guns usually have a 6mm Flobert rifled barrel or/and a 9mm smooth one. Look at the proof rules above, 16b about the crown/G stamp: Rifling is not mentioned here, only barrels meant for a Einzelgeschoß = Bullet. Contemporary Busdorf in his book "Wilddieberei und Förstermorde" relates a murder case, to which key factors were two long, above the legal minimum of 20cm, single shot break-open target pistols, special ordered by a poacher and killer from Venus-Werke O.Will in Z-M, smoothbored and chambered for the 9.1x40R. Will had two of his standard offerings rebored smooth and converted to centerfire from .22 rimfire. The crook used it out to 20m with the case full of bp and a round ball. Must have been effective enough, because he killed not only roe deer and boars with these pistols, but a forester too. MikeV mentions the proofmarks. at the time of proof the barrel was stamped 8.8 (mm) = .346" by the proofhouse, so a plug gauge of that diameter entered the barrel for 20cm, while a 8.9 = 350" one did not. This is a proper bore diameter for a 9.1x40R. "Overboring" such a barrel to remove the rifling would lead to a bore diameter of 9.1mm = .358". MikeV mentions a bore diameter of .336", perhaps a typo from .346, in any case much too small for a bored-out rifle barrel. As I wrote before, smooth barrels for the 9.1x40R were proofed for the bulleted cartridge with 1g bp and a 150gr lead bullet, as this load could be chambered and fired in them.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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BTW, here is the cut from a post-1900 O.Will catalog showing the pistol "Venus Mod. Nr. 500" mentioned by Busdorf. Note the caption "target- and hunting-pistols".
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Very informative Axel.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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I used to read the crown/G as "gezogen" = rifled too, but actually it stands for "Geschoss" = bullet. Quote of a footnote from Lee Kennett's article Gun Proof in Germany, Gun Digest 1975, page 187: "2 The proof law did not provide tables for shotguns and rifles as such, but for arms designed to fire shot and those made for solid projectiles. While this amounts to essentially the same thing, it does not preclude the possibility of a smoothbore being proved by table III and bearing the crowned G, if indeed it was actually designed to fire bullets. This was the case for some of the massive smoothbore doubles built for big game hunting in this period."
Last edited by kuduae; 01/18/11 05:14 PM.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Gentlemen,
Thank you for the very informative post/replies,
Buchseman
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