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#211011 - 12/27/10 09:32 PM The Krag
Michael Petrov Offline
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Registered: 12/31/01
Posts: 6881
Loc: Alaska

There seems to be a lot of customized Krags on the market at this time, many not bad and in the $300-400 range.

I’ve seen a lot written about the Krag and many times the one locking lug is always mentioned as the “Weak” link in the Krag. This is to address the design of the Krag not the strength for a better understanding of the rifle.

Please understand that I do not advocate loading the Krag action up beyond the designed pressure limits. Stick with published loads found in any loading manual.

A few years ago after hearing one warning after another I decided to test a Krag action, to destruction.
I built a box out of wood 2x12’s with a steel top, the inside of the box was painted. I set it up so I could fire it remotely, a long string. Word traveled fast and there were a half-dozen folks on hand for the day. Who could resist seeing a gun blowup?

After everything was ready I fired two factory 220gr rounds to make sure everything was fine, it was.
I loaded all the ammo with Remington brass, 200gr Sierra bullets and CCI large rifle primers.

I then shot the following loads which showed maxim in the loading manuals.
A. 40.2 gr. 4895 All OK no problem opening the bolt
C. 36.3gr. 3031 All OK no problem opening the bolt
E. 40.9gr. 4064 All OK no problem opening the bolt
The following loads filled the case to the base of the bullet.
B. 43.0gr. 4895 All OK no problem opening the bolt
D. 41.0gr. 3031 All OK no problem opening the bolt
F. 44.0gr. 4064 All OK no problem opening the bolt

G. 20.0gr. Bullseye, Very loud noise, flattened primer, bolt very hard to open. I was a little surprised that the rifle was still in one piece.

H. 30gr. Bullseye receiver sheared off at the safety lug, both sides, receiver broke off at the bolt handle, top flange on the bolt face gone, back 3/8” of case gone, could read the headstamp on the bolt face. The barrel and back of the receiver flew out the front of the box and the box was blown apart but the paint was not so much as scratched.

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MP Sadly Deceased as of 2/17/2014





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#211013 - 12/27/10 09:35 PM Re: The Krag [Re: Michael Petrov]
Michael Petrov Offline
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Registered: 12/31/01
Posts: 6881
Loc: Alaska
Now to the important part of this experiment. ALL the rounds fired and listed above were fired after the single locking lug had been completely removed. The Krag has a well designed and strong safety lug.

No need to hot-rod the Krag I used one for years on both Moose and Caribou and it did a fine job with factory Remington 220’s.
_________________________
MP Sadly Deceased as of 2/17/2014





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#211029 - 12/27/10 11:02 PM Re: The Krag [Re: Michael Petrov]
LRF Offline
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Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 914
Loc: Minnesota
Most interesting.
Okay, I admittally know very little about the gun. Nothing based on actual experience only what I have heard. Its life as a military weapon was short lived and I believe that is rooted in some of its short comings as a "military" weapon; however as Michael mentions, it was used by many a hunter.

Here is my questions:
1. What can be done to make it into a "classic" sporter? What are some of the details that can be changed and/or added?
2. Can it be chambered for any other cartridges other then the 30-40?

Cool pics of guns would be nice. I do think that a remember a few being on past threads so I will research those.

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#211038 - 12/28/10 03:17 AM Re: The Krag [Re: Michael Petrov]
waterman Offline
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Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 394
Loc: Humboldt County, CA
Answer to question #1 is: Get a new stock, remove military sight & shorten the barrel. Sedgeley (sp?) reworked a lot of them. Did G&H make any alterations? I have what I think is a Bannerman alteration with a WW1 surplus Springfield barrel & Marble's receiver sight. In Muzzle Flashes, Lenz shows a Harvey Rogers Krag sporter on p. 582. That is supposed to be an extreme modification of the military stock.

#2: I have seen classic sporters in .35 WCF and .405 WCF. Both required some work on the magazine to handle the slightly longer cartridges. The man who owned both sporters said the alteration involved grinding away the front part of the magazine well to accommodate the longer cartridges. I have seen minimal alterations of the Krag to 25/35 WCF. I have never shot one but I am told the magazine works & feeds properly. Krags have been made into 22 Hornets, 219 Zippers and 22 Savage High Powers, but I think all were single loaders and were made simply because the actions were cheap and available.

Since June, I have been playing with a minimal sporterization of a Model 1898 Krag Gallery Practice Rifle owned by Terry Buffum. I think the rifle is chambered for 22 Extra Long rimfire. The conversion to rimfire works very well, but the rifle has a .226" groove diameter and an 18" twist. Regular 22 LR ammo does not shoot too well, but I am sure the rifle will shoot well with the proper bullet. I now have bump dies, 4 22 caliber bullet moulds and 5,000 empty primed Long Rifle cases. All I need is some ambition.

MP has suggested sticking to loads published in the loading manuals. Beware of some of the maximum loads in old Lyman manuals. I cracked a bolt with one of them.


Edited by waterman (12/28/10 03:22 AM)

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#211062 - 12/28/10 01:14 PM Re: The Krag [Re: Michael Petrov]
james-l Offline
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Registered: 11/27/05
Posts: 1197
Loc: California
I recall that it was common modify the magazine to be flush with the stock, this reduced the capacity to 3 cartridges ? Should be enough for a hunting rifle.
_________________________
I learn something every day, and a lot of times it's that what I learned the day before was wrong


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#211065 - 12/28/10 01:42 PM Re: The Krag [Re: Michael Petrov]
SDH-MT Offline
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Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 2281
Loc: Montana
I have a 1998 Krag Sporter with an aftermarket walnut stock, original sights removed, Redfield receiver and ramp front sight installed on a shortened and crowned (by me) 24" barrel. Stock action, magazine and barrel. It's no beauty queen but an A-OK Krag and I would sell it for $375 shipped (FFL required) Can have pix later today if interested. Would include some slightly tarnished 180 gr. Hornady round nose bullets.
(And it is stronger than Michael's as it still has the locking lug, although I don't warrantee it for 30 (???) grains of bullseye!!!).
sdh@montana.net
_________________________
Steven Dodd Hughes, gunmaker, writer, photographer.
www.finegunmaking.com

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#211068 - 12/28/10 02:09 PM Re: The Krag [Re: Michael Petrov]
waterman Offline
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Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 394
Loc: Humboldt County, CA
The flush magazine parts apparently were made by Hart, the same firm that made the speed lock conversions of the Win. 52.

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#211073 - 12/28/10 03:17 PM Re: The Krag [Re: Michael Petrov]
LRF Offline
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Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 914
Loc: Minnesota
Does anyone have a rifle with the flush style mag that James-I and Waterman are discussing? If yes, can you post some pics of it?
It soulds like a nice detail.

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#211075 - 12/28/10 03:40 PM Re: The Krag [Re: Michael Petrov]
Michael Petrov Offline
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Registered: 12/31/01
Posts: 6881
Loc: Alaska
When I ground the locking lug off the bolt I cut through the case hardening using a bench grinder. The case was very thin and the rest under it was very soft and easily removed with a file.

If anyone has a Krag bolt with a cracked locking lug I would be interested in obtaining it for another experiment. I want to see if a cracked locking lug will set back. I can check this with feeler gauges at the safety lug.

I run more then a hundred rounds through my Krag in the summer so would be easy to change bolts and see for myself.
_________________________
MP Sadly Deceased as of 2/17/2014





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#211076 - 12/28/10 03:42 PM Re: The Krag [Re: Michael Petrov]
Michael Petrov Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 12/31/01
Posts: 6881
Loc: Alaska
Mine is no beauty but shoots really well.
No. 1




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MP Sadly Deceased as of 2/17/2014





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#211077 - 12/28/10 03:46 PM Re: The Krag [Re: Michael Petrov]
Michael Petrov Offline
Sidelock
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Registered: 12/31/01
Posts: 6881
Loc: Alaska
No. 2




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MP Sadly Deceased as of 2/17/2014





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#211078 - 12/28/10 03:49 PM Re: The Krag [Re: Michael Petrov]
Michael Petrov Offline
Sidelock
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Registered: 12/31/01
Posts: 6881
Loc: Alaska
No. 3


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MP Sadly Deceased as of 2/17/2014





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#211080 - 12/28/10 03:55 PM Re: The Krag [Re: Michael Petrov]
bsteele Offline
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Registered: 01/28/02
Posts: 652
Loc: Sullivan, IN
Wow! That's nice!

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#211082 - 12/28/10 03:56 PM Re: The Krag [Re: Michael Petrov]
Michael Petrov Offline
Sidelock
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Registered: 12/31/01
Posts: 6881
Loc: Alaska
No. 4


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MP Sadly Deceased as of 2/17/2014





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#211085 - 12/28/10 04:04 PM Re: The Krag [Re: Michael Petrov]
LRF Offline
Sidelock
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Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 914
Loc: Minnesota
Michael,
Yours (the first pic) is nice, very serviceable. I like.
Are the engraved ones yours also?

The last photo is certainly a very nice classic rifle. Do you have a photo of the other side?

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#211086 - 12/28/10 04:12 PM Re: The Krag [Re: Michael Petrov]
waterman Offline
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Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 394
Loc: Humboldt County, CA
#3 is certainly a winner. I don't care for all the engraving on #2, but that is just a matter of personal taste.

Michael, I have been meaning to swap out the cracked bolt in my 96. Will a stripped 1896 bolt work for your test?

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#211087 - 12/28/10 04:23 PM Re: The Krag [Re: Michael Petrov]
Michael Petrov Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 12/31/01
Posts: 6881
Loc: Alaska
The first picture is the only Krag I own. When I find a nice Krag I let our friend and Krag-Sporter collector Mark Benenson know about it.

Unfortunately Mark is under the weather and may not be reading these post.

#2 is a rifle that is a brother rifle to a 1903 I own and I have been looking for it for some time.

The owner of #3 I think, reads these forums so he may or may not post info.

No. 2 & 3 were both made by the same folks.

I think a 96 bolt will work, I'll check.
_________________________
MP Sadly Deceased as of 2/17/2014





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#211088 - 12/28/10 04:30 PM Re: The Krag [Re: Michael Petrov]
RHD45 Offline
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Registered: 10/08/07
Posts: 1662
I think we, as Americans, can be proud of the arms that our government deemed fit to issue us when we served.I am totally in awe of the strength of the Krag that Michael tested.

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#211090 - 12/28/10 04:35 PM Re: The Krag [Re: RHD45]
Michael Petrov Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 12/31/01
Posts: 6881
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: RHD45
I think we, as Americans, can be proud of the arms that our government deemed fit to issue us when we served.I am totally in awe of the strength of the Krag that Michael tested.


Please remember that this was only one (1) krag and we should not read a lot into the test other than understanding how the rifle was designed.

I was also involved (an accomplice)to the testing to destruction of a 45-70 Trapdoor and I WILL NEVER PUBLISH THAT TEST! This was also a test of only one action and I could not believe what it took to destroy it.
_________________________
MP Sadly Deceased as of 2/17/2014





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#211092 - 12/28/10 05:03 PM Re: The Krag [Re: Michael Petrov]
RHD45 Offline
Sidelock
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Registered: 10/08/07
Posts: 1662
It is nice to know that when you use common sense and the proper ammunition that the gun is not going to take your head off. There was talk of dropping C4 booby trapped ammo for the ak into the hands of the vc when I was in vietnam. I always wondered if any actually was made and planted. That would have been an interesting "blowup" test.

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#211094 - 12/28/10 05:31 PM Re: The Krag [Re: Michael Petrov]
SDH-MT Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 2281
Loc: Montana
Nice Splice!
_________________________
Steven Dodd Hughes, gunmaker, writer, photographer.
www.finegunmaking.com

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#211099 - 12/28/10 06:17 PM Re: The Krag [Re: Michael Petrov]
WJW Offline
Sidelock

Registered: 12/20/08
Posts: 33
Loc: South Eastern B. C.
For those interested in a flush magazine conversion, a flush magazine conversion is shown on page 280 of both the "NRA Gunsmithing Guide" and the "NRA Gunsmithing Guide - Updated".

While this conversion looks interesting it appears to make the loading of the action somewhat more difficult and doesn't seem to add greatly to the asthetics of the action. There may be a reason the Danish loading gate was not copied in the American or Norwegian rifles.

Bill

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#211103 - 12/28/10 06:32 PM Re: The Krag [Re: Michael Petrov]
gasgunner Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 504
Michael,
I really like that last rifle. Talk about a silk purse out of a sows ear.

Here is one of my a my fun guns. Krag single shot in reworked issue stock. Chambered for the R2 lovell. Barrel marked CC Johnson. Custom scope bases. Shoots as well as most varmint rifles of that vintage. I have been toying with the idea of inletting a cheek piece in the side of the stock like G&H used to do. Just not sure how to give the new wood the dark oil soaked look of the existing stock.



Another vintage varmint rifle. This one a .219 Zipper by G&H.



John

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#211107 - 12/28/10 06:45 PM Re: The Krag [Re: WJW]
LRF Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 914
Loc: Minnesota
Thanks, I don't happen to have that book so I'll see if I can find a copy.

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#211111 - 12/28/10 07:12 PM Re: The Krag [Re: Michael Petrov]
WJL Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 09/21/08
Posts: 465
Loc: Louisiana
Michael,

I wish you would tell us the results of the Trapdoor experiments. I have two of the old soldiers and I really suspect they have a bum wrap for strength. The block is massive and well supported at the rear with thick sidewalls on the receivers. They were strong enough for the armory to use them in developing the 30-40 cartridge. The hinge is a bit flimsy but it doesn't take any of the stress of firing and the cam is only there to keep the block from opening. If the steel is good and the headspace not excessive I suspect the action can take a lot.

Jerry Liles

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#211119 - 12/28/10 09:24 PM Re: The Krag [Re: Michael Petrov]
Mike A. Offline
Sidelock
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Registered: 12/11/10
Posts: 1213
Loc: OC, CA
Gasgunner, those single shot Krags ARE a gas! The Zipper is just plain elegant, the R2 is elegantly plain!

This whole thread makes me wish I were in a part of the nation that had more small gunshops where you can find a bubbaed Krag for a reasonable price (NOT Southern California, believe me). Mr. Petrov's experiments gave me a whole new respect for the Krag. I had always just bought the "recieved knowledge" that the action was all kinds of weak....an eye opener.

I feel a "blue highway" trip coming on.....

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#211130 - 12/28/10 11:04 PM Re: The Krag [Re: Michael Petrov]
Michael Petrov Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 12/31/01
Posts: 6881
Loc: Alaska
Thee are a lot of Krags for sale and if I was looking for one I would sure get some pictures from SDH on his.

Look at places like GunBroker there are a pile of Krags for sale there.
_________________________
MP Sadly Deceased as of 2/17/2014





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#211131 - 12/28/10 11:06 PM Re: The Krag [Re: Michael Petrov]
Michael Petrov Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 12/31/01
Posts: 6881
Loc: Alaska
Speaking of Trapdoors , this would be a fun project at the right price. I have seen two others with the top mounted cartridge traps.

I've thought about putting one on my trapdoor.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=207627670
_________________________
MP Sadly Deceased as of 2/17/2014





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#211139 - 12/29/10 08:14 AM Re: The Krag [Re: Michael Petrov]
J.D.Steele Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 09/14/08
Posts: 1153
Loc: deep South
Michael, I've seen several drillings and one vierling with the top-mounted trap, but never a single trapdoor! Is the trap shown on the rifle a recognizable one, correct for the rifle, or is it a one-of-a-kind example?
Regards, Joe
_________________________
You can lead a man to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America!

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#211141 - 12/29/10 09:40 AM Re: The Krag [Re: J.D.Steele]
gbehrman Offline
Sidelock
****

Registered: 12/31/02
Posts: 78
Loc: Western New York
Here are some pics of Krags. Double set triggers in a 22 Niedner Magnum single shot. Original ammo with 63 gr. bullets chronographed at 3300FPS. Scary. Rifle by Niedner in 1933 and I believe the stock was done by Shelhamer. Remember he had to do what the customer wanted.

Also a three shot conversion to 25 Krag Improved. Unk gunsmith. Thanks to Michael experiment I don't feel so nervous shooting these two but I take it easy on the reloads.










_________________________
gbehrman

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#211150 - 12/29/10 01:20 PM Re: The Krag [Re: J.D.Steele]
Michael Petrov Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 12/31/01
Posts: 6881
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: J.D.Steele
Michael, I've seen several drillings and one vierling with the top-mounted trap, but never a single trapdoor! Is the trap shown on the rifle a recognizable one, correct for the rifle, or is it a one-of-a-kind example?
Regards, Joe


The first Springfield cartridge trap I remember was on a Officers Model in the Archer L. Jackson collection. Mr. Jackson had a wonderful collection of single-shots that included a half-dozen or more Trapdoor Officers Models. The auction was in 2,1982 and I still have the catalog. There are two pictures of this rifle but you can not see the detail. His had a dog head engraved on the trap.

The second one I looked at was at a large gun-show but not Vegas , possibly Denver. This was on a nice officers Model and was engraved but no dog.

I also remember one more towards the comb but don't remember if it was a Officers Model or not.

I believe that these are a refined "Stillman Quick Loader" adapted to the Officers Model. Springfield tried a Cartridge trap as far back as the 50-70 Trapdoor. They also made some that had a compartment in the same spot for tools.

I believe that the cartridge trap on the rifle at auction is correct and installed by Springfield Armory.
_________________________
MP Sadly Deceased as of 2/17/2014





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#211155 - 12/29/10 03:43 PM Re: The Krag [Re: Michael Petrov]
SDH-MT Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 2281
Loc: Montana
Probably the worst time to sell anything But, I'm doing a New Year Shop reorganization and trying to eliminate a few untouched projects. Here are a few snaps of my 1898 A-OK Krag. A good project, needs bedding and could loose so weight all around. Redfield sight, steel buttplate & grip cap, real ebony forend tip otherwise all 24" barreled Krag. $350 shipped to FFL. sdh@montana.net


_________________________
Steven Dodd Hughes, gunmaker, writer, photographer.
www.finegunmaking.com

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#211156 - 12/29/10 03:53 PM Re: The Krag [Re: SDH-MT]
Idared Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 10/18/08
Posts: 158
Loc: Central Washington
Steve

I'd like this if the bore is good.
_________________________
The remodelled Springfield is the best and most suitable all 'round rifle. - Seymour Griffin wink


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#211158 - 12/29/10 04:24 PM Re: The Krag [Re: Michael Petrov]
WJL Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 09/21/08
Posts: 465
Loc: Louisiana
Steve if Idared doesn't take it I will''Jerry Liles

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#211160 - 12/29/10 04:58 PM Re: The Krag [Re: Michael Petrov]
SDH-MT Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 2281
Loc: Montana
Larry's got a new project coming!
Thanks Larry, and Jerry...

It's 28 snowing and blowing in MT, supposed to be -14 tomorrow.
Happy New year!


Edited by SDH-MT (12/29/10 04:59 PM)
_________________________
Steven Dodd Hughes, gunmaker, writer, photographer.
www.finegunmaking.com

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#211161 - 12/29/10 05:08 PM Re: The Krag [Re: Michael Petrov]
WJL Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 09/21/08
Posts: 465
Loc: Louisiana
Darn.

Enjoy your new rifle Idared. It aught to make a dandy woods rifle.

Jerry Liles

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#211162 - 12/29/10 05:18 PM Re: The Krag [Re: SDH-MT]
Idared Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 10/18/08
Posts: 158
Loc: Central Washington
Originally Posted By: SDH-MT

It's 28 snowing and blowing in MT, supposed to be -14 tomorrow.
Happy New year!


Isn't it always blowing snow in Livingston in the winter? At least it seems that way to me every time I drive through there. wink

A Happy New Year to you too Steve. smile

Many thanks
_________________________
The remodelled Springfield is the best and most suitable all 'round rifle. - Seymour Griffin wink


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#211342 - 12/30/10 11:07 PM Re: The Krag [Re: Michael Petrov]
Tinker Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 858
Loc: Northern NV
I have no love or interest for military surplus issue rifles.


I also love Krags!


I don't have much interest in most of the warmed-over sporterized jobs out there...


...but I love love love this rifle...








Mr Petrov, I've noted this before, and I'll say it again.
I so very much hope that whenever you're ready to sell that very nice rifle, I'll be able to and allowed to purchase it from you.





Cheers
Tinker

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#211351 - 12/31/10 12:22 AM Re: The Krag [Re: Michael Petrov]
Michael Petrov Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 12/31/01
Posts: 6881
Loc: Alaska
Tinker, Sorry that's not my rifle, the owner may stop by but you would have to get in line ;-).
_________________________
MP Sadly Deceased as of 2/17/2014





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#211429 - 12/31/10 05:40 PM Re: The Krag [Re: Michael Petrov]
Plain Old Dave Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 12/26/10
Posts: 63
Put me as another admirer of this fine Krag. Honestly, I am getting so I like well-sportered Krags as much as military ones. Where can I get wood like that? I have had my '96 sporter for 22 years and have never been a fan of the white line spacer Bishop stock she has.

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#211462 - 12/31/10 08:42 PM Re: The Krag [Re: Tinker]
Don Moody Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 02/25/02
Posts: 3205
Loc: The Republic of Texas
Originally Posted By: Tinker









That is the the most beautiful Krag Sporter that I have ever seen and one of the best Sporters, no matter what the action.
_________________________
Ole Cowboy

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#211571 - 01/01/11 05:14 PM Re: The Krag [Re: Michael Petrov]
RHD45 Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 10/08/07
Posts: 1662
No nonsense,stylish and efficient.The 30-40 will take anything in north america and most other places too.

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#211572 - 01/01/11 05:34 PM Re: The Krag [Re: Michael Petrov]
SDH-MT Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 2281
Loc: Montana
_________________________
Steven Dodd Hughes, gunmaker, writer, photographer.
www.finegunmaking.com

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