doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com It followed me home...from the web. What is it??

It looks like a classic english game gun.
Straight grip, double triggers, ejectors, hidden third bite fastener, 28 inch barrels (mod,full). Some case colors are still present on the reciever. It also has a bracket rebated reciever where it joins the wood. Beading around the fences. Wood seems nice, but nothing special.

Nice scroll engraving on the sides, bottom and top of the reciever. Rib and barrels also have scroll engraving. Solid swamped rib does not have any matting except for the engraving on the hidden third bite fastener and for about 2 inches past. Standard brass bead sight.

Forend metal is all engraved, as are the heads of the screws inside the fore arm. Release is a spring lever rather than a push button. Ends of the release lever metal (portion inletted into the forearm) have points or V's at each end rather than being simply rounded. Slender fore arm with an ebony wedge with a slight schnable at the end.

Now the tough part. It has no makers name. Only marking I can find on the outside is "83" engraved on the trigger tang (also pointed, like the release lever). "83 steel" is on the underside of each barrel. Barrels are regular steel, not damascus. "83" is also marked on the inside of the fore end iron. I assume this gun is number 83. There is a serial number, but it is stamped in and may be a later addition (491073xxx73 not 83).

Proof marks are crown over BV (birmingham?) and crown over KA (no clue). Also "choke" on each barrel and "RO PRC". I am assuming that is a mis-stamped nitRO PROof. "RO PRC" appears identically on each side of the barrel flats. The forcing cones start about 3 1/4 inches from the breech. I assume it is chambered for a 2 3/4 inch shell, but won't know until I get a chamber gauge (I'm not shooting it until I am certain). Chokes seem to be full (dime won't fit) and mod (dime fits with a little extra space).

Does anyone have an idea about who the manufacturer might be?

Any guesses on when it was made?

Any guesses on value?

Is it possible to identify it close enough (2 or 3 makers) that I could track down when it was made or get an authentication letter?

Here are the pictures I had to look at when I got it on the net.
And yes, the stickers came with the gun!!!!!

Thanks for any help identifing this for me.
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p159/baldferd/pix1686534173.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p159/baldferd/pix1686533767.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p159/baldferd/pix1933264001.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p159/baldferd/pix1686534251.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p159/baldferd/pix1686533970.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p159/baldferd/pix1933264267.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p159/baldferd/pix1933264204.jpg

The crown over the BV is Birmingham. It was used from 1904-1955. Sorry that is all I know about the proof marks....

Pete

Some may think this heresy, but there is the strong possibility that this is a gun that was made in Japan and prior to WW2.
I won't go into all my reasoning, at this time, but will say that the long number that you cite along with the bracket frame , that looks distinctly like Westley Richards, may give its origin away.
It is possible that the gun was sold as used, in Japan, and brought back to England.
Best,
John

John, you may be correct as the gun was in Japan at least as late as 1980. The seller told me it was brought to the U.S. from there. Also, one of the stickers on the stock is in Japanese and has a 1979 - 1980 date.

I am aware that Japan was making Greener and Westley Richards copies in the 1930's.

I was hoping that the birmingham proof mark would mean it was an english made gun.

I would be interested in hearing everyone's opinion on what they think it is and its value if it turns out to be a Westley Richards copy.

Thanks,
T

Nearly bought it myself! Looks like a classy gun, but the proofs didn't look right at all.

I'd bet a small sum that that Birmingham mark is bogus. Second, if Japanese, I'd bet a fair sum that it is a very well made gun. Third, it is going to have to stand on its own Original Quality grade, which looks to be good, as it isn't going to get any help from the Brand Value of a maker's name.

Suggestion - get it vetted, clean it up, and enjoy it for what it most likely is - a nice, well made gun. Be very mizerly about spending money on it if you are concerned about resale value.

It does seem to be a very well made gun. It snaps shut very tight and has no play with the fore end removed.

I'm not too worried about resale as it was under $500 and I think I could get that very easily.

I will be able to measure the chambers when I get a chamber gauge. What is the best way to determine proof? I don't think I will trust the proof marks.

Is it possible for an individual to get the "blue pill" proof shells?
Is it possible to reload shells with a 150% charge? I think that is the normal proof load. Anyone have a recipe for a reloading a proof load?

I would prefer to use normal 2 3/4 inch field loads, if it is chambered for 2 3/4 inch. However, I would feel better if it was proofed before I started shooting it.

I may end up putting choke tubes in it (heresey and lowering the value to some people, I know) and using it for a dove and quail gun.

Gunsport has a pre-war japanese Westley Richards copy which has an action that looks similar to mine and a Greener copy that they don't have a picture of.

Kanamaru (Yokohama) Wesley - Richards pattern Boxlock Ejector, 12ga, 27" barrels, 2 1/2" chambers.

Pictures are about 1/2 way down the page.

http://www.gunsport.com/shotgun.htm

Thanks for all the replies.

Proofing is not a DIY proposition - ever!!! The value to firing a proof load is the preceeding and following inspections by highly skilled inspectors. Firing a high pressure load without the skill and tools to recognize damage (and some damage requires very exacting measurements to detect) may well set you up for a failure with a normal pressure load. Don't do it. "proof marks" and bore measurements are what you go by for determining state of in-proof. I'd not trust the proof marks, so, off the gunsmith you go.

An inspection by a known gunsmith should get you a go-nogo on firing. Note that 2 3/4" chambers are NOT an indication that the gun is suitable for typical SAAMI pressure loads. The gun should be shot with low pressure loads based on age and design.

Within the limits of whatchagot, this can be a nice, fun gun. Refinishing the stock and properly rebluing the barrels might be in order.

Not that Rocketman needs reinforcement, but those proofs have to be bogus. First they are about the poorest stamps I have seen. It is not likely the pros at a proof house would have buggered multiple marks like that and also left out several other marks which should accompany them. Strange though that if the gun is pre war Japanese there isn't some Japanese symbol stamped in somewhere - take a detailed magnified closer search for a symbol, particularly under one of the bogus stamps. I can't get a good clear magnified image of it, but I think the crown over the BV is what you need to examine as it seems to be a Japanese symbol, not a British Crown.

I've checked over all the stamps and they don't seem to be japanese. The mark over the BV looks like a wedge that tapers up from the BV, with rounded top corners and placed in the center at the top is a diamond. It looks like a pretty typical crown BV mark to me.

I do think it is odd that the Japanese copies on the gunsport site have a makers name and Japan on them. And that this one doesn't.

I do think that someone was playing games with the proofs though. You couldn't mis-stamp nitRO PROof and get exactly the same RO PRC unless that was the stamp that you had.

I will have the barrels examined by a gun smith. I am worried that a smith that doesn't do an actual proofing would not have much to go on other than barrel thickness. Are there any U.S. smiths that do a true barrel proofing?