doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Napoleon and Kuchenreuters questions? With Images

I am looking closely at a very nice collection of guns which include what appear to be a few very rare collectible guns. Is this the best forum to post?

One is a Napoleon Bonaparte Double Barrel Shotgun - Beautiful condition with it's own lighted case - Leige Barrels - I have a picture - appears very similar to the one in the National Rifle Museum.

Also a two gun set of I Andreas Kuchenreuters Bouble barrel percussion pieces by Heinrick Ebert of Vienna - Royal weapon made for Court Trautson as certified by Kensthistorisches Museum of Austria. Crown with nine pearls. Serial #1 and #2, an exquisite work of art of the highest order - magnificent custom "cripple-stock" most rare, Reputed to have been in the collection of King Christian 8 of Denmark

Depends on your motive for posting. Pictures are a must.

It's a doublegun interest forum and what you're looking at are doubles, so provisionally it seems like a good fit although the first 45 of us Looky Lous don't appear to be the audience you're searching for. Certainly there must be someone here conversant with these antiquities and she will be along sooner or later. Welcome aboard.

jack

Welcome. I'll be interested in the photos and any discussion. I do antiques, but not quite that antique or aristocratic. I, too, hope some learned discussers show up.

Unequivocally, this is a best forum in which to post. Is the Napoleon Bonaparte scattergun a flintlock or percussion? Heinrich Ebert of Wien & Johann Andreas I(1822-1898) were both active in the 1840s and Heinrich Ebert may have hung his shingle out as early as circa 1820. And there was a Andreas Jacob Kuchenreuter active at the beginning of the 19th Century. The Kuchenreuters of Regensburg have a gunmaking dynasty that is all but unparalleled in Germany reaching back uninterrupted to the late 1600s. They had a reputation for fine tubes and I would guess the tubes of the pistols were sourced from Johann Andreas I with Heinrich Ebert being the wholesaler. The King of Austria, Bavaria along with Napoleon and Tsars are found in their order books. Dr. Dirk Gotschmann of the University of Regensburg has penned 2 books while the descendents of Johann Kuchenreuter hail from Cham in the Bavarian Forest being about 80 km East of Regensburg.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Assuming that Heinrich Ebert obtained a royal warrant, I don't see him listed in the 1899 listing:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_k.u.k._Hoflieferanten_1899

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=187669#Post187669


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,
This is Off Topic but thanks to you I now know that a favorite marine painter of mine, Anton Perko, was nothing less than a Kammer-Lieferant, together with viennese gunmaker Johann Springer's Erben and only 17 others. Perko was born in a village some twenty miles from where I live, same village that I plan to go hunting wild boar when the first snow comes; what a small world.
With kind regards,
Jani

Trying to post images for the first time so I hope this works,

I have minimal information at this time on the believed to be Napoleon Bonaparte Double Barrel shotgun. I do know it was once appraised for a fairly high value and is it described in their inventory list as in beautiful condition (will try and get more information) . Here is a picture...


The information I have at this time regarding the I Andreas Kuchenreuters is as listed above. "Bouble barrel percussion pieces by Heinrick Ebert of Vienna - Royal weapon made for Court Trautson as certified by Kensthistorisches Museum of Austria. Crown with nine pearls. Serial #1 and #2, an exquisite work of art of the highest order - magnificent custom "cripple-stock" most rare, Reputed to have been in the collection of King Christian 8 of Denmark" Again, I am attempting to get more information. Here is an image of these guns.

Was Napoleon left-handed? A short internet journey seems to agree.
Cheers,
Jani

Jani:
It might be a slight stretch, but I think anyone on the k.u.k. Lieferent list would be on topic for the specific purpose of developing an idea of the overall sourcing by the Royal Courts and putting the k.u.k. gunmakers into perspective. I'm most pleased to see that someone finds the verbiage I post useful and I hope to one day visit some of the areas where k.u.k. folks hailed from.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I am sure that Napoleon recieved many gifts of firearms. The finest examples of Napoleons guns are to be seen in the Musee de L,Armee, Paris.
Examples of Napoleons guns are to be seen on pages 96 & 184 of the book,"100 Great Guns,"by,Merrill Lindsay.The makers illustrated are Boutet and LePage. The stock on the LePage gun/rifle is similar to that seen on the shotgun picture in the post.The illustrated example has Napoleons crest in gold inleted in the stock.I think that a check with the Museum in Paris would be in your best interest.

I was able to get a few more images but still very little specific information about this gun

Hi Raimey,
When are you coming over?
I only live 60km from Regensburg, 100km from Cham and 150 from the Suhl museum. Stay at my place.

Der Familienbetrieb KUCHENREUTER "Jagd und Tracht" besteht bereits seit 1640.
Begonnen hat es mit der Büchsen- macherei und selbst bis zum Adel hatte es sich schon damals rumgesprochen, dass die Kuchenreuter-Büchsen einmalig sind.
Nicht nur Jäger und Schützen schätzen unsere Produkte, auch die bayerischen Könige und die Fürsten von Thurn und Taxis. Bereits Kaiser Napoleon, Fürst von Metternich, die Zaren von Russland und die Kaiser von Österreich waren stolze Besitzer von Kuchenreuter-Waffen. Selbst Casanova duellierte sich damals mit einer Pistole von Kuchenreuter und verwundete seinen Gegner schwer.

http://www.kuchenreuter.de/datei?datei_id=1
= the family tree link.

http://www.kuchenreuter.de/datei?datei_id=2
= a 100 page history of the family.

I took possession of the �Napoleon� gun for a short period of time in order to take a volume of photographs. There is no provenance on this gun� no papers� only an ownership trail for the past two owners. However, it is a spectacular gun! There are markings on the barrel of the gun which I hope can be used to identify the maker or company. Additionally, there is an emblem or Crest which was with the gun, which I am assuming to be of some significance. However, compared to the gun the emblem is of poor quality. The stock carving are wonderfully ornate and of the highest quality. I hope the images capture the true beauty. The gold inlays and engravings are also of the highest quality. If any of these �markers� are familiar to board members I would welcome your thoughts. Knowing I have much research ahead of me, I thought I might start with some passionate experts right here on the boards. Thanks.

Are there any other proof marks on this gun?

Pete

Additional images of proof marks.

If you don't mind me asking.....what makes you desire these guns ?

These guns are wonderful, historic, pieces of art. They represent the finest works of the world's earliest gunmakers. One can only imaging the time, skill and patience necessary to create such a gun. The intricacy of the carving, the engraving, and the tooling is spectacular. And, in this case, the research underway to determine this guns history will provide endless entertainment. Personally, I would say such a gun can be compared to the finest paintings from artists of that era such as Chardin or Monet. Each individual gun is a masterpiece.

Windy,

The double flint looks to be a very fancy but not especially high quality Belgian gun from about 1800. To see the stuff that old Bony was using, take a look at the James D. Julia catalog for session 2 March 16, 2010 where a few Boutets are pictured. [jdjuliaauctions.com, firearms division, past auctions].

The Kuchenreuters look to be of excellent quality and condition from what I can see in the photos. Any better close-ups available?

All the best, Mal

I REMEMBER SEEING A BEAUTIFUL KUCHENREUTER FLINTLOCK
IN THE MUSEUM OF NATURAL HISTORY IN NY CITY

I've never encountered the phrase "cripple-stock" before. In relation to the Kuchenreuters gun, is it the pronounced cheek rest, which looks very "dish-like" in the second photos, that warrants the use of that phrase?

I think we've all seen the drastically bent stocks made for cross dominant eye situations (eg. R handed, L dom eye).
Would this suit the "cripple-stock" descriptive?

Or perhaps it has nothing to do with a stock shaped to better suit a shooter's particular need because of an infirmity, but rather strictly applied to a stock that is simply fashioned a certain way with NO relation to the shooter who will own the gun?

I'm quite curious and would be very grateful for an explanation of this term. Many Thanks - Marc

I guess you see high quality work that eYe can't.

From what the photos show, I'm not nearly as enthralled as I would be with other 19th century guns, specifically British "Bests".

The wood carvings shown in close-up look like novelty items, definitely "tarty". Not impressed with the metal engraving either.

As far as provenance goes, I think you should seriously think if Napoleon would really desire a google-eyed hound carved on one of his firearms.

After all you've said and shown, I still don't know if you are thinking of buying one of them, all of them or none of them.

I'm not trying to be a sarcastic cynic and deflate your high, but, like Joe, I just can't see the quality you take for granted.

Also, you've ruffled some of my feathers. Comparing this gun to a work by Monet is laughable if not contemptible.

Rough crowd. I will continue my research. Will post the Kruchenreuter images soon.

That knight appears to be a stamping. The engraving on the barrels is not well done at all. I have seen what the Belgian makers were capable of during this period. This gun is not even close.

Pete

Basically what you are saying is it's a JAUBC ?

I apologize in advance for the lack of clarity with these images. It was the best I could manage given the lighting in the museum.

This is a Belgian flintlock from 1780-1790 as I recall.



These images are a Belgian pinfire that was dated to 1850.





Pete

I appreciate the "education" I am getting here... tough as it is. This gun in question is part of a large collection and has been the most difficult to identify. My lack of expertise shows but I did not mean to offend anyone with my enthusiasm. I will continue to research that gun and will report back if I find useful information. As promised, here are images of the Kuchenrueter's - serial #1, #2.

The collection documents say "Delicate, restrained relief carving of the unblemished stocks � high gloss finish, horn capped fullstocks with matching rammers. Silver furniture is flawless and the fire-blued barrels are delicately inlayed with silver with the makers name and hallmarked with Kuchenreuter touch mark in gold. The unfired bbls are 10� and the pistols are 16 � � overall. A similar brace of Kuchenreuter pistols is in the collection of Her Majesty the Queen of Windsor Castle (lot specimens 379) and noted as examples #205 �Pistols of the World� by Claude Blair.�

I have thus far been unsuccessful confirming the above reference to Her Majesty the Queen collection and I have ordered �Pistol�s of the World.�

I will begin to research this gun as well.

The metal of the pistols has been re- polished, and the stocks refinished without a lot of TLC. They are of high original quality, and made about 1810 [bridled frizzens with roller springs along with semi-waterproof pans.] Are they rifled? The 2 leaf sights and set triggers would suggest this. Still a fine pair of pistols.

All the best, Mal

There is a very similar flint double shotgun in the Julia catalog, spring 2009, no mention of Napoleon. Reportedly unfired original 28 bore, estimated 2-3 grand. Lovely wallflower.

I did this years ago for a project and have no idea today how accurate it is.

Kuchenreuter
Georg I 1600-1650
Georg II 1640-1685
Johann 1640-1690
Johann Christoph I 1670-1742
Johann Jakob 1709-1783
Joseph I 1712-1769
Johann Andreas I 1716-1795
Joseph II 1752-1830
Johann Christoph II 1755-1818
Georg Joseph 1754-1783
Johann Andreas II 1758-1808
Bartolomaeus Joseph I 1779-1864
Joseph Anton 1789-1865
Johann Adam I 1794-1869
Bartolomaeus Joseph II 1811-1873
Georg III 1820-1869
Johann Adam II 1822-1898
Bartolomaeus Joseph III 1834-1911

Agree with Mal, poorly cleaned and refinished.

What little vallue those pistols might have had was polished off.

I think you better pass on buying this junk.