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If I could see some better pictures of the markings I might be able to tell you who made the gun. I can tell you that it was imported by John Jovino & Sons.

Also the best way to know what chokes you really have now! is to measure it.

Best

John Boyd
Quality Arms Inc


John Boyd
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Originally Posted By: arrieta2
If I could see some better pictures of the markings I might be able to tell you who made the gun. I can tell you that it was imported by John Jovino & Sons.

Also the best way to know what chokes you really have now! is to measure it.

Best

John Boyd
Quality Arms Inc


John,
Here's another picture of the barrel flats:



Also, if you detach the pictures of the watertable shown earlier in this thread and blow them up, there's a lot of detail there. This forum downsized the pictures. Any info you provide would be helpful. PS. I found somewhere else that the star over PSF mean it was proofed at 1020 Bar. My understanding is that would translate to pounds per square inch of over 14,000.


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Tut, I've now located a second opinion--similar to the first one I listed (12,000 psi proof). Baron Engelhardt's article in the 1961 Gun Digest Treasury says that for 16ga or larger, the standard proof for smokeless--which is the single star over PSF--is 12,800 psi. That's still not much over the SAAMI service pressure for 12ga loads of 11,500 psi, and I'd either stick to CIP loads or low pressure reloads.

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My goodness there is a lot of varied information out there. Board member send me the following which I'll post for reference purposes:



PS. Your going to have to detach and blow up. Wish someone would translate all of this into english.

Double PS. I've been told this certificate is dated later then what this particular gun is made. Accordingly, the gun in 1955 was proofed at less then 1020 BAR. You can see where this gets a tad confusing.

Last edited by tut; 08/12/10 07:56 PM.

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Therein lies the problem, tut. The Italians should have changed the proofmark when they changed the standards. The superior proof (2 stars) was added in 1962, and it would make sense to speculate that that's when they also changed their "normal" proof pressure. Unfortunately, that doesn't help you much, because your gun was made prior to 62.

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From the Italian Proof House
=================

PROVA DELLE ARMI

La procedura di controllo e di prova, a cui deve essere sottoposta ogni singola arma (la prova è individuale), viene eseguita in conformità alle norme C.I.P., e consiste in:
a) Controllo dei marchi distintivi, che consentono l'identificazione dell'arma (marchio di fabbrica, numero di matricola, n° catalogo se arma rigata e calibro).
b) Controllo della conformità al catalogo (L. 110/775): l'arma deve corrispondere al Catalogo Nazionale verificando che le caratteristiche dell'arma corrispondano a quelle riportate nella scheda pubblicata sulla Gazzetta Ufficiale.
c) Controllo visivo e di funzionamento in bianco.
d) Controllo dimensionale delle caratteristiche che interessano la sicurezza dell'utilizzatore.
e) Prova sparo di due cartucce, per ogni canna, che sviluppano una pressione di almeno il 25% superiore alla massima pressione delle cartucce commerciali. Per le armi provate per l'impiego delle cartucce con pallini di acciaio, si sparano 3 colpi per canna. Per i revolver si spara una cartuccia per camera.
f) Controllo dopo lo sparo: dopo lo sparo le armi vengono attentamente esaminate mediante un controllo visivo e con verificatori "non passa."
g) Punzonatura e registrazione dei dati: se un'arma ha superato tutte le prove precedenti, il Banco appone i punzoni in conformità alle normative C.I.P..

I dati inoltre, vengono riportati nel certificato di prova, che il Banco rilascia al presentatore, e li trattiene in copia.
L'archivio o banca dati del Banco di Prova, contiene i dati, relativi alle circa 40 milioni di armi provate dal 1920 ad oggi.

===========================

PROOF OF WEAPONS

The procedure for checking and testing, which must be submitted each weapon (the test equipment), is performed in compliance with CIP, and consists of:
a) Control of markingsthat enable the identification of the weapon (trademark, serial number, catalog No. if rifles and caliber).
b) Monitoring compliance catalog (L. 110 / 775): the weapon must be sure that the National Library to match the characteristics of those shown in the schedule published in the Official Gazette.
c) Visual and operating in white.
d) Dimensional checking the features that affect safety.
e) We shot two rounds of ammunition for each barrel, who develop a pressure of at least 25% above the maximum pressure cartridge business. For the weapons tested for the use of cartridges with steel shot, you shoot 3 rounds per barrel. For you shoot a revolver cartridge chamber.
f) control after the shot: after firing the weapons are carefully examined by visual inspection and verifiers "does not pass."
g) Punching and recording of data: if a weapon has passed all previous tests, the Bank shall affix punches in compliance with CIP.

The data also are reported in the test certificate, that the Bank shall deliver to the presenter, and holds them in copies.
The archive database or test bench, contains data relating to about 40 million weapons tested from 1920 to today.

===================
tut,

The pressure I stated above, 12,000 psi, was from Lee Kennett's article in the 1972 Gun Digest.

Gerhard Wirnsberger, "The Standard Directory of Proof Marks" uses 12,801 psi and 17,637 psi respectively.

Kennett got his numbers from his correspondence with the Italian Proof house. Kennett states that on Nov 2, 1962 a minor change was introduced. A superior definitive smokeless proof was introduced, 17,600 psi. It was only mandatory on guns with chambers longer that 70mm. On 70mm and shorter it was optional. This proof is 2 stars over PSF.

Producing cerificates of proof without the gun is meaningless. We have no idea of the markings on said gun. We can see that your gun does not have the 2 stars over PSF mark.

Please be aware that historically, proof marks are very complex. Various proof houses implemented changing standards when they choose to based on their convenience. For instance, a change in the Brussels Convention occurred in 1912. The Liege proof house did not implement it until 1924. It is only very recently under the auspices of the European Union that change can be implemented evenly.

On a different note. The Italian Proof House can make you crazy at times. They supposedly use a date code, however, I have seen actual dates stamped on guns. Nothing in Italian proof law states that the barrel weight is stamped on the gun, yet I have seen examples that have the weight.

Pete

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Thanks to all for their input on this topic. It has indeed been a learning experience. The amount of knowledge floating around on this forum is amazing. Can't imagine how folks were able to obtain this level of information pre-internet. Guess lots of phone calls.


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Most of us didn't know either, tut--pre-Internet. Picked up in bits and pieces, here and there, over a very long time. I have both Kennett's series of proof articles, which usually incorporated much of what Engelhardt had done previously (plus updates), plus the original Engelhardt articles. In this case, I'm not quite sure why Kennett and Engelhardt don't agree on the standard proof, but the difference is only 800 psi which is not all that significant.

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tut,

What Larry says is very true. There were very few who did the "hard research" on a broad level. I can think of only a few. Perhaps Joe Vorisek, Bothroyd, etc. Vorisek was amazing. I have his 3 volume work. Thousands of pages with reproduced catalogs, patents, etc.

In that regard the internet has been a boone. It can also lead to some sloppy work. People who "find it" on a website, therefore it must be true. I get some silly questions via email at times. Mainly from people who surfed it up. For instance, you can't shorten damascus barrels because they will unwind like a spring!

This site is very good. It gives the opportunity to not only ask questions, but also vet an idea. I would never had met or made contact with someone like EDM. We have had several long conversations about American produced damascus. Some times there are small facts that an author will discard that shed light for some one researching from a different angle. Only through a conversation do those come up.

The other bonus to this site are the number of serious collectors who are willing to share photos, information and experiences. It is always a pleasure when Roy or lagopus post on Brit guns, because they often include personal knowledge.

Pete

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It's an incredible resource, but you have to remember something you used to hear a lot about the Net, not so much now: garbage in, garbage out (GIGO). On this BB, fortunately, there is enough resident experience that the garbage is quite likely to get taken out, and fairly promptly. Not that we always agree . . . but other than on subjects like "felt recoil" (which is subjective anyhow), there aren't many times when you either fail to get a good consensus, or else find the one or two resident experts who can help you out.

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