November
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
8 9 10 11 12 13 14
15 16 17 18 19 20 21
22 23 24 25 26 27 28
29 30
Who's Online
11 registered (KDGJ, Cold Iron, bushveld, Lloyd3, Mills, 1 invisible), 5 Guests and 0 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
13916 Members
10 Forums
35055 Topics
491812 Posts

Max Online: 462 @ 08/05/16 09:13 PM
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#198613 - 08/08/10 05:14 PM Proof and choke question please Italian gun
tut Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 1374
Loc: Retired FED
I had posted on a italian gun earlier. I've not got a picture of the front of the barrels where they meet the barrel flats. This is Greek to me, but someone here can surely tell me what the bore diameter and chokes are I'm guessing from this information and what they are also proofed at. Want to know if this gun would be ok for normal hunting type loads. Thanks:



Left Barrel KG 1,330 and 18.6 and 17.1

Right barrel Number 70 and then 20,3 and then 18.3 and 17.4

For the left barrel I'm guessing that the KG 1,330 is what it is proofed for. The 18.6 is the bore size left barrel and choke of that left barrel is 17.1.

For the right barrel, I'm guessing 70 is chamber size. No idea what the 20,3 would be. And then 18.3 is bore size and the 17.4 is choke constriction.

PS. If I'm wrong please correct me. This is an education process for me. Thanks

_________________________
foxes rule

Top
#198658 - 08/08/10 11:14 PM Re: Proof and choke question please Italian gun [Re: tut]
Rocketman Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 5902
Left Barrel KG 1,330 (barrel weight = 2# 15 oz) and 18.6 (bore = 0.732") and 17.1 (muzzle = 0.673") That would give you 0.059" of choke constriction, which seems like way too much. Maybe I've missed something here.

Right barrel Number 70 (chamber length = 2.756") and then 20,3 (0.799" not sure about this one) and then 18.3 (0.720") and 17.4 (0.685")

For the left barrel I'm guessing that the KG 1,330 is what it is proofed for. The 18.6 is the bore size left barrel and choke of that left barrel is 17.1.

For the right barrel, I'm guessing 70 is chamber size. No idea what the 20,3 would be. And then 18.3 is bore size and the 17.4 is choke constriction.

Top
#198681 - 08/09/10 07:08 AM Re: Proof and choke question please Italian gun [Re: Rocketman]
tut Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 1374
Loc: Retired FED
I came up with the same as you with the one barrel. Choke of .059 which is the most choke I've ever heard of on a double. That said, my turkey gun has a bore of .729 and the choke tube is .665. The equates to .064, so I'm guessing anything is possible. Am surprised there is such a difference in the two bores.
_________________________
foxes rule

Top
#198687 - 08/09/10 09:51 AM Re: Proof and choke question please Italian gun [Re: tut]
L. Brown Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 01/01/02
Posts: 10826
Loc: Iowa
Far as I know, on Italian guns, they do not stamp proof in kg or bars, as some proofhouses do (Spanish and British, for example).
The pressure proofmark on an Italian gun is a star in a circle over PSF. If there are two of those, that's "superior" proof and you'd be good to go with any American factory loads. If there's just one, that's more the equivalent of standard CIP proof.

Top
#198699 - 08/09/10 11:37 AM Re: Proof and choke question please Italian gun [Re: L. Brown]
JayCee Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 01/02/02
Posts: 3628
Hello Larry,

Here are the action flats posted earlier:


Couldn't the 20.3 be chamber diameter? Also, the kg in Italian guns refer to the
weight of the barrels not pressure of proof.

JC
_________________________
"...it is always advisable to perceive clearly our ignorance."ť Charles Darwin

Top
#198720 - 08/09/10 04:26 PM Re: Proof and choke question please Italian gun [Re: JayCee]
L. Brown Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 01/01/02
Posts: 10826
Loc: Iowa
Looks like the standard proof rather than the superior proof. I see only one mark over the PSF. Can't help with the 20.3.

JJ.CO.NYC. must be the importer.

Top
#198727 - 08/09/10 05:42 PM Re: Proof and choke question please Italian gun [Re: L. Brown]
smlekid Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 01/04/02
Posts: 417
Loc: Australia
the paper work that come with my B Rizzini indicates that the 1 star over PSF means it is proofed to 1200KG/CM the 2 star over PSF indicate 1370kg/CM
Tut does your gun look anything like this

Top
#198730 - 08/09/10 05:56 PM Re: Proof and choke question please Italian gun [Re: smlekid]
tut Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 1374
Loc: Retired FED
Originally Posted By: smlekid
the paper work that come with my B Rizzini indicates that the 1 star over PSF means it is proofed to 1200KG/CM the 2 star over PSF indicate 1370kg/CM
Tut does your gun look anything like this


Yes and no, it looks similar, but not as much engraving and it has an extra screw in the back of the sideplate. There are certainly similarities. This is also a guild gun with no markings on the barrels. Also, the area behind the fences is very different. Yours is a much higher grade no doubt.
_________________________
foxes rule

Top
#198773 - 08/10/10 08:42 AM Re: Proof and choke question please Italian gun [Re: tut]
L. Brown Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 01/01/02
Posts: 10826
Loc: Iowa
I don't believe we've established a date on Tut's gun yet. The information I have is from a 1972 Gun Digest article, indicating that the standard smokeless proof (PSF indicating smokeless) was 12,000 psi. The superior proof, instituted in 1962, was 17,600 psi. Could be that the Italian proofhouse rules have changed since 1972, but if Tut's gun was made earlier than that--and there should be a Roman numeral date code--then I'd say the lower figure applies.

Top
#198822 - 08/10/10 03:04 PM Re: Proof and choke question please Italian gun [Re: L. Brown]
tut Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 1374
Loc: Retired FED
Found the date stamp. The gun was made in 1955.
_________________________
foxes rule

Top
#198847 - 08/10/10 06:20 PM Re: Proof and choke question please Italian gun [Re: tut]
L. Brown Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 01/01/02
Posts: 10826
Loc: Iowa
Can't be certain, tut, but I'm thinking that's not a 1200 bar gun given that date, and especially if there's no indication it was made specifically for the US market. There's the US importer's stamp, but that could well be as a used gun rather than as new. In fact, if there's no importer's name on the outside of the barrels, I'd say that tips the odds farther in the direction of having been brought in used.

Top
#198858 - 08/10/10 07:23 PM Re: Proof and choke question please Italian gun [Re: L. Brown]
tut Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 1374
Loc: Retired FED
I'd say with no markings on the barrel, that your most likely right. Wonder if one could contact the importer and if they might have any old records on it? Probably not, but I might give them a buzz just out of curiosity. One thing is for sure. It's got some damn tight chokes. PS. I'm assuming this gun would be fine for modern normal non-moose loads.


Edited by tut (08/10/10 08:04 PM)
_________________________
foxes rule

Top
#198882 - 08/10/10 10:24 PM Re: Proof and choke question please Italian gun [Re: tut]
Rocketman Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 5902
With the 1950's date and a single proof, I'd say with CIP pressures or, better yet, low pressure handloads. I'd not shoot SAAMI loads until sure of the proof.

Top
#198915 - 08/11/10 06:28 AM Re: Proof and choke question please Italian gun [Re: L. Brown]
tut Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 1374
Loc: Retired FED
Originally Posted By: L. Brown
I don't believe we've established a date on Tut's gun yet. The information I have is from a 1972 Gun Digest article, indicating that the standard smokeless proof (PSF indicating smokeless) was 12,000 psi. The superior proof, instituted in 1962, was 17,600 psi. Could be that the Italian proofhouse rules have changed since 1972, but if Tut's gun was made earlier than that--and there should be a Roman numeral date code--then I'd say the lower figure applies.


Ok. Now even I'm confused. It does indeed have the following proofs.

The star with PSF under it. The star with FINITO under it and the star with the shield under it.

Wouldn't the PSF with the star provide a standard proof of PSA 12,000 and make this suitable for standard loads? BTW, it has German barrels Boehler, if that matters and tons of wall thickness.
_________________________
foxes rule

Top
#198931 - 08/11/10 08:20 AM Re: Proof and choke question please Italian gun [Re: tut]
PeteM Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 4598
Loc: IL
star PSF Smokeless proof at 12,000 psi
star FINITO final proof of a gun in the completed state
star Shield mark of the Gardone Val Trompia Proof house.

The origin or composition of the barrels has nothing to do with proof pressure.

Pete
_________________________
http://www.damascus-barrels.com/Movie.html



Top
#198933 - 08/11/10 08:43 AM Re: Proof and choke question please Italian gun [Re: PeteM]
L. Brown Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 01/01/02
Posts: 10826
Loc: Iowa
Tut, SAAMI service pressure for 12ga loads is 11,500 psi. Assuming we're correct that your gun was proofed at 12,000 psi, that's scarcely higher than the service pressure ceiling for American loads. I would not shoot standard American factory loads in that gun.

Top
#198937 - 08/11/10 08:51 AM Re: Proof and choke question please Italian gun [Re: L. Brown]
JayCee Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 01/02/02
Posts: 3628
I'd stick to CIP rated ammo.

JC
_________________________
"...it is always advisable to perceive clearly our ignorance."ť Charles Darwin

Top
#198960 - 08/11/10 10:36 AM Re: Proof and choke question please Italian gun [Re: JayCee]
tut Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 1374
Loc: Retired FED
Thanks folks. Think my brain understands now.
_________________________
foxes rule

Top
#199057 - 08/11/10 10:02 PM Re: Proof and choke question please Italian gun [Re: tut]
Rocketman Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 5902
tut, the CIP service pressure is in the 8000 - 9000 psi range for the 12,000 psi proof firing.

Blowing the barrels is one of the less likely issues with high pressure. The more likely issues have to do with overstressing the action bar, the jointing, the locking, and/or the wood bedding. Pounding a gun prematurely off-face is the most likely issue.

Top
#199059 - 08/11/10 10:20 PM Re: Proof and choke question please Italian gun [Re: Rocketman]
tut Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 1374
Loc: Retired FED
I was thinking this particular gun would be interesting for turkey or waterfowling as its a hammer gun. However, both of those games lend themselves to more powerful loads then 8,000 - 9,000 PSI as a rule. I did some checking and loading my own can get some loads in the right pressure range, but loading up niceshot is expensive and factory loads in lower pressure non tox loads is ungodly expensive. On top of that this gun has a bit of fixing required to make it right and there's no point in spending additional money on something I have to baby anyway. All my questions were being put out there in an attempt to get smarter. Seems like I am and that's why this particular forum is a good place to get the right answers.
_________________________
foxes rule

Top
#199108 - 08/12/10 10:14 AM Re: Proof and choke question please Italian gun [Re: tut]
arrieta2 Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 01/28/02
Posts: 1150
Loc: TX
If I could see some better pictures of the markings I might be able to tell you who made the gun. I can tell you that it was imported by John Jovino & Sons.

Also the best way to know what chokes you really have now! is to measure it.

Best

John Boyd
Quality Arms Inc
_________________________
John Boyd
Quality Arms Inc
Houston, TX
281-870-8377

Top
#199137 - 08/12/10 03:51 PM Re: Proof and choke question please Italian gun [Re: arrieta2]
tut Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 1374
Loc: Retired FED
Originally Posted By: arrieta2
If I could see some better pictures of the markings I might be able to tell you who made the gun. I can tell you that it was imported by John Jovino & Sons.

Also the best way to know what chokes you really have now! is to measure it.

Best

John Boyd
Quality Arms Inc


John,
Here's another picture of the barrel flats:



Also, if you detach the pictures of the watertable shown earlier in this thread and blow them up, there's a lot of detail there. This forum downsized the pictures. Any info you provide would be helpful. PS. I found somewhere else that the star over PSF mean it was proofed at 1020 Bar. My understanding is that would translate to pounds per square inch of over 14,000.
_________________________
foxes rule

Top
#199143 - 08/12/10 04:32 PM Re: Proof and choke question please Italian gun [Re: tut]
L. Brown Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 01/01/02
Posts: 10826
Loc: Iowa
Tut, I've now located a second opinion--similar to the first one I listed (12,000 psi proof). Baron Engelhardt's article in the 1961 Gun Digest Treasury says that for 16ga or larger, the standard proof for smokeless--which is the single star over PSF--is 12,800 psi. That's still not much over the SAAMI service pressure for 12ga loads of 11,500 psi, and I'd either stick to CIP loads or low pressure reloads.

Top
#199147 - 08/12/10 04:59 PM Re: Proof and choke question please Italian gun [Re: L. Brown]
tut Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 1374
Loc: Retired FED
My goodness there is a lot of varied information out there. Board member send me the following which I'll post for reference purposes:



PS. Your going to have to detach and blow up. Wish someone would translate all of this into english.

Double PS. I've been told this certificate is dated later then what this particular gun is made. Accordingly, the gun in 1955 was proofed at less then 1020 BAR. You can see where this gets a tad confusing.


Edited by tut (08/12/10 08:56 PM)
_________________________
foxes rule

Top
#199229 - 08/13/10 08:38 AM Re: Proof and choke question please Italian gun [Re: tut]
L. Brown Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 01/01/02
Posts: 10826
Loc: Iowa
Therein lies the problem, tut. The Italians should have changed the proofmark when they changed the standards. The superior proof (2 stars) was added in 1962, and it would make sense to speculate that that's when they also changed their "normal" proof pressure. Unfortunately, that doesn't help you much, because your gun was made prior to 62.

Top
#199239 - 08/13/10 10:06 AM Re: Proof and choke question please Italian gun [Re: L. Brown]
PeteM Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 4598
Loc: IL
From the Italian Proof House
=================

PROVA DELLE ARMI

La procedura di controllo e di prova, a cui deve essere sottoposta ogni singola arma (la prova è individuale), viene eseguita in conformità alle norme C.I.P., e consiste in:
a) Controllo dei marchi distintivi, che consentono l'identificazione dell'arma (marchio di fabbrica, numero di matricola, n° catalogo se arma rigata e calibro).
b) Controllo della conformitĂ  al catalogo (L. 110/775): l'arma deve corrispondere al Catalogo Nazionale verificando che le caratteristiche dell'arma corrispondano a quelle riportate nella scheda pubblicata sulla Gazzetta Ufficiale.
c) Controllo visivo e di funzionamento in bianco.
d) Controllo dimensionale delle caratteristiche che interessano la sicurezza dell'utilizzatore.
e) Prova sparo di due cartucce, per ogni canna, che sviluppano una pressione di almeno il 25% superiore alla massima pressione delle cartucce commerciali. Per le armi provate per l'impiego delle cartucce con pallini di acciaio, si sparano 3 colpi per canna. Per i revolver si spara una cartuccia per camera.
f) Controllo dopo lo sparo: dopo lo sparo le armi vengono attentamente esaminate mediante un controllo visivo e con verificatori "non passa."
g) Punzonatura e registrazione dei dati: se un'arma ha superato tutte le prove precedenti, il Banco appone i punzoni in conformitĂ  alle normative C.I.P..

I dati inoltre, vengono riportati nel certificato di prova, che il Banco rilascia al presentatore, e li trattiene in copia.
L'archivio o banca dati del Banco di Prova, contiene i dati, relativi alle circa 40 milioni di armi provate dal 1920 ad oggi.

===========================

PROOF OF WEAPONS

The procedure for checking and testing, which must be submitted each weapon (the test equipment), is performed in compliance with CIP, and consists of:
a) Control of markingsthat enable the identification of the weapon (trademark, serial number, catalog No. if rifles and caliber).
b) Monitoring compliance catalog (L. 110 / 775): the weapon must be sure that the National Library to match the characteristics of those shown in the schedule published in the Official Gazette.
c) Visual and operating in white.
d) Dimensional checking the features that affect safety.
e) We shot two rounds of ammunition for each barrel, who develop a pressure of at least 25% above the maximum pressure cartridge business. For the weapons tested for the use of cartridges with steel shot, you shoot 3 rounds per barrel. For you shoot a revolver cartridge chamber.
f) control after the shot: after firing the weapons are carefully examined by visual inspection and verifiers "does not pass."
g) Punching and recording of data: if a weapon has passed all previous tests, the Bank shall affix punches in compliance with CIP.

The data also are reported in the test certificate, that the Bank shall deliver to the presenter, and holds them in copies.
The archive database or test bench, contains data relating to about 40 million weapons tested from 1920 to today.

===================
tut,

The pressure I stated above, 12,000 psi, was from Lee Kennett's article in the 1972 Gun Digest.

Gerhard Wirnsberger, "The Standard Directory of Proof Marks" uses 12,801 psi and 17,637 psi respectively.

Kennett got his numbers from his correspondence with the Italian Proof house. Kennett states that on Nov 2, 1962 a minor change was introduced. A superior definitive smokeless proof was introduced, 17,600 psi. It was only mandatory on guns with chambers longer that 70mm. On 70mm and shorter it was optional. This proof is 2 stars over PSF.

Producing cerificates of proof without the gun is meaningless. We have no idea of the markings on said gun. We can see that your gun does not have the 2 stars over PSF mark.

Please be aware that historically, proof marks are very complex. Various proof houses implemented changing standards when they choose to based on their convenience. For instance, a change in the Brussels Convention occurred in 1912. The Liege proof house did not implement it until 1924. It is only very recently under the auspices of the European Union that change can be implemented evenly.

On a different note. The Italian Proof House can make you crazy at times. They supposedly use a date code, however, I have seen actual dates stamped on guns. Nothing in Italian proof law states that the barrel weight is stamped on the gun, yet I have seen examples that have the weight.

Pete
_________________________
http://www.damascus-barrels.com/Movie.html



Top
#199244 - 08/13/10 10:48 AM Re: Proof and choke question please Italian gun [Re: PeteM]
tut Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 1374
Loc: Retired FED
Thanks to all for their input on this topic. It has indeed been a learning experience. The amount of knowledge floating around on this forum is amazing. Can't imagine how folks were able to obtain this level of information pre-internet. Guess lots of phone calls.
_________________________
foxes rule

Top
#199322 - 08/13/10 06:18 PM Re: Proof and choke question please Italian gun [Re: tut]
L. Brown Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 01/01/02
Posts: 10826
Loc: Iowa
Most of us didn't know either, tut--pre-Internet. Picked up in bits and pieces, here and there, over a very long time. I have both Kennett's series of proof articles, which usually incorporated much of what Engelhardt had done previously (plus updates), plus the original Engelhardt articles. In this case, I'm not quite sure why Kennett and Engelhardt don't agree on the standard proof, but the difference is only 800 psi which is not all that significant.

Top
#199333 - 08/13/10 06:56 PM Re: Proof and choke question please Italian gun [Re: L. Brown]
PeteM Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 4598
Loc: IL
tut,

What Larry says is very true. There were very few who did the "hard research" on a broad level. I can think of only a few. Perhaps Joe Vorisek, Bothroyd, etc. Vorisek was amazing. I have his 3 volume work. Thousands of pages with reproduced catalogs, patents, etc.

In that regard the internet has been a boone. It can also lead to some sloppy work. People who "find it" on a website, therefore it must be true. I get some silly questions via email at times. Mainly from people who surfed it up. For instance, you can't shorten damascus barrels because they will unwind like a spring!

This site is very good. It gives the opportunity to not only ask questions, but also vet an idea. I would never had met or made contact with someone like EDM. We have had several long conversations about American produced damascus. Some times there are small facts that an author will discard that shed light for some one researching from a different angle. Only through a conversation do those come up.

The other bonus to this site are the number of serious collectors who are willing to share photos, information and experiences. It is always a pleasure when Roy or lagopus post on Brit guns, because they often include personal knowledge.

Pete
_________________________
http://www.damascus-barrels.com/Movie.html



Top
#199418 - 08/14/10 06:01 PM Re: Proof and choke question please Italian gun [Re: PeteM]
L. Brown Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 01/01/02
Posts: 10826
Loc: Iowa
It's an incredible resource, but you have to remember something you used to hear a lot about the Net, not so much now: garbage in, garbage out (GIGO). On this BB, fortunately, there is enough resident experience that the garbage is quite likely to get taken out, and fairly promptly. Not that we always agree . . . but other than on subjects like "felt recoil" (which is subjective anyhow), there aren't many times when you either fail to get a good consensus, or else find the one or two resident experts who can help you out.

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >



doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2019 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.