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#195838 - 07/15/10 10:22 AM Re: Another Drilling to be Identified - Help Welcome [Re: Rookhawk]
ellenbr Offline
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Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8657
Loc: North Alabama
Treff was an action made by Meffert which has a horizontal block attached to the top strap which houses the strikers and coil springs. W. Müchler was a firearms merchant.

Yes, the actions are very similar but the side frame reinforcements are different and that may be attributed to the possibility that a different frame filer was sourced. Most have Greener safeties but one has a top strap safety. Considering that the Suhl-Zella/Mehlis area was one big gun shop, I'd say it is possible that about any craftsman could have contributed to the effort on the example and depending on the time constraint, all may have been sourced to different sub-contractor shops. Or the components on the examples could have been acquired from the same source and individual craftsmen added their own artistic flare making each slightly different. I don't know of a Suhl/Zella-Mehlis craftsman with the initials "ST" right off but I'll look. Any possibility that the "ST" is "S1", which is a forge mark or tube makers mark that crops up from time to time, many times on E. Schmidt & Habermann examples.

What it take to make a guess at the makers, etal.? Info on the initials on the tubes near the forend lug as well as just ahead of the flats. Also any stamps that are adjacent to the steel stamps. And a little time, of course.



Similar engraving as found on a DR??

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#195854 - 07/15/10 12:49 PM Re: Another Drilling to be Identified - Help Welcome [Re: ellenbr]
ellenbr Offline
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Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8657
Loc: North Alabama


Note the stamps after the steel type stamp. I really can't tell what they are but they seem to be different than others I've logged. Also is the script "W.K." in the same position near the forend lug?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#195907 - 07/15/10 06:27 PM Re: Another Drilling to be Identified - Help Welcome [Re: ellenbr]
Rookhawk Offline
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Registered: 07/07/10
Posts: 707
Raimey,

My gun has w.k. In what appears to be a similar if not identical script. However, w.k. Is located near the monobloc on mine. Where your example says w.k. Near the lug, mine says ST in block font. It is definitely not S1 which you asked earlier.

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#195908 - 07/15/10 06:31 PM Re: Another Drilling to be Identified - Help Welcome [Re: ellenbr]
Rookhawk Offline
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Registered: 07/07/10
Posts: 707
Raimey,

My gun has w.k. In what appears to be a similar if not identical script. However, w.k. Is located near the monobloc on mine. Where your example says w.k. Near the lug, mine says ST in block font. It is definitely not S1 which you asked earlier.

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#195980 - 07/16/10 09:35 AM Re: Another Drilling to be Identified - Help Welcome [Re: Rookhawk]
ellenbr Offline
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Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8657
Loc: North Alabama
Thomas, Triebel, maybe a couple more round out the German craftsmen with a last name beginning with a "T". I'd look in the Triebel direction as in the mid to late 1800s there was a Stephan Triebel who was a Royal Weapons Inspector. There were several of these folks in and around the Suhl area but from what I can glean the majority of them worked at a state arsenal inspecting weapons applying those funky "Crowned" Gothic letters. But there wasn't an arsenal in the Suhl/Zella-Mehlis area, which was one factor that allowed the craftsmen of Suhl and Zella-Mehlis to avoid the fate of many of the gunmaking towns which was centered around an arsenal. But there were arsenal contractors in Suhl and the slight possibility exists that one aspect of their task was to inspect weaspons at the gunmaker's facility. It's sort of a broad interpretation of the scope of work of the Royal Weaspons Inspector, which some folks consider to be a stretch but I don't know what else they would have performed their job without traveling to an arsenal.

Any rate with all that typed, there may have been a 2nd generation of Triebel with the 1st name of Stephan or one of his relatives named their son after him. But I haven't found a Stephan Triebel that was a master gunsmith.

Wilhelm Kelber was of a family of tube makers and I think he was a principal in Gerbrüder Kelber. His initials are on many, many examples from Suhl.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#197395 - 07/28/10 10:26 AM Re: Another Drilling to be Identified - Help Welcome [Re: Rookhawk]
Rookhawk Offline
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Registered: 07/07/10
Posts: 707
Raimey,

I found this link today http://www.gunsamerica.com/958942640/Gun..._Combo_USE.htm#

It appears to be a very utilitarian version of the same action / frame type as the guns we're discussing.

How can I find out where all these frames came from originally? It appears that about 1% of all the drillings I've seen use this very distinctive and unique stock-to-receiver inletting and I want to learn more.

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#197397 - 07/28/10 10:37 AM Re: Another Drilling to be Identified - Help Welcome [Re: Rookhawk]
Rookhawk Offline
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Registered: 07/07/10
Posts: 707
One more update:

I found another gun by the same "maker". (the name of the retailer on the gun barrel).

It is a different frame type but it appears to be the same engraver. http://www.cabelas.com/gun-inventory---kansas-city---european-sg---1723089-strover-kc.shtml

Not sure if this aids us in finding more about the gun I have or not?

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#197458 - 07/28/10 07:28 PM Re: Another Drilling to be Identified - Help Welcome [Re: Rookhawk]
ellenbr Offline
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Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8657
Loc: North Alabama






A. Schuler - Ludwigshafen on the Rhein

My vote, Rookhawk, is for Gerbrüder Rempt. Schilling could have easily been a raw frame source. Many makers offered them and I'd say the bulk passed thru the proofhouse in Zella-Mehlis so I'd venture another guess that the craftsmen of Zella Sankt Blasii and Mehlis were subcontracted. I think one contractor to have the initals A.W(probably August Wagner pre-WWI). I don't know if I seen enough to say that 1% of production drillings had this Roux action type.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#198765 - 08/10/10 01:14 AM Re: Another Drilling to be Identified - Help Welcome [Re: ellenbr]
Rookhawk Offline
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Registered: 07/07/10
Posts: 707
[img]https://moritz.homeserver.com/PhotoViewer/album634135129003437500/index.xml[/img]

Raimey,

I just got the drilling (2nd one) back from the Gunsmith. I took some pictures of the proof marks and labeled them as well. It is one of the last pictures in this gallery above but I can't figure out how to upload it individually. I thought it might prove as a quick identification tool for people trying to explain proof marks to you via this forum.

I also wanted to draw your attention to the W.K. and St initials on the gun, the location of the 1/29 and the mysterious symbols boxed in red that look like outlined letter M or letter K. No idea what those might be.

In other news, the bore cast tonight shows that indeed, the gun is positively a 8x57 rimmed contrary to what the German Gun Collectors guys swore to me. They claimed that Henri Roux actioned guns were NEVER 8x57 and when proofed as mine is, were usually 8x57/360. Well, I believe mine is an original 8x57JR in the .318 bore diameter (it was sold as such) but I need to push a lead slag through the bore just to make absolutely positive that the gun is not a 8x57JRS with .323 bore dimensions.

When I have more time I'll tell you the nightmares I've had over this gun, Cabelas salespeople, amazing gunsmithing from Orvis and why UPS made me sad when they dropped off the gun today.

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#198785 - 08/10/10 09:53 AM Re: Another Drilling to be Identified - Help Welcome [Re: Rookhawk]
ellenbr Offline
Sidelock
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Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8657
Loc: North Alabama



Deleted different Cast




Wilhlem Kelber looks to have performed all the tube work with the "K" encircled by the "W" along with the script "W.K." initials. Pending consideration a few measurements like the rim diameter & base diameter I'd say you have the 8x58 Sauer which also had the designation 8X57R. Also if the bullet diameter was 8.2mm it would almost exactly fit the 8x57R Express or 8.2 X57R(Hagen). The 8(8.08)x58 Sauer would fit well with the Roux action and some free advice would be to never get a 8x57IR cartridge near the drilling. The "Crown" over "W" on the scattergun tubes indicates constriction. The "16" stamps give chamber info as well as black powder proof. Can you get a good pic of the "St" stamp? When I have more time I'll stare at the marks a bit more. Do tell the whole story including purchase & delivery.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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