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#195753 - 07/14/10 05:42 PM Another Drilling to be Identified - Help Welcome
Rookhawk Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 07/07/10
Posts: 707
Friends,

I have another drilling similar to the one I posted all the pictures of in the other thread, only this one is in my opinion, "better".

I do not have photos of it but I have all the details an expert would need to give advice on the gun and to answer the questions I have.

The questions I have are as follows:

1. When was the gun made?
2. Was this gun proofed in Suhl or elsewhere?
3. What can I learn about the maker - A. Strover, Nordhausen (the O in strover has uhmlauts over it)
4. What pressures / types of loads are safe for the rifle?
5. Value? (obviously for that you'll need pictures to be provided at a later date)
6. I was told the gun is a .318 bore 8x57J rimmed cartridge and NOT a .323 bore 8x57JS. I believe this to be true because the gun is so light I would be uncomfortable using the higher power loads. If I do a bore cast and verify it is .318, does this give us any hints to the gun's age?


The facts as dictated by the proofs are as follows:

The shotgun barrels are proofed with the crown over S, W, and U respectively. (also Nitro proofed)

They are proofed with "circle 16" and an additional 16 which I believe is 16 gauge, Full choke for each barrel.

The rifle barrel has crown over N.

The rifle charge is listed as:

StmG
-----
13gr

The cartridge is listed as:

7.8mm
------
57


The two most interesting proofs on the gun that I do not understand are as follows:

-On the belly of the shotgun barrels, an outlined letter M is present on each barrel.

-On the rifle barrel, a fraction stated 1/29 is listed at the very bottom of the barrel near the breech. (could this be manufacturing date?)

-W.K. is stamped to the bottom of rifle barrel which I believe is the initials of the barrel maker.

-Barrels are labeled Krupp Laufstahl

-Serial number is 10402

-Maker or seller's name is found on the top of the barrels (not on the rib). "A. Strover" on one barrel and "Nordhausen" on the other.

-There are numerous duplicate stampings all over the proof area of the eagle shape that was used from 1912 onward.

***Those are all the markings and proofs on the entire gun. I won't be able to add pictures for weeks but that should be enough to describe the gun accurately. It is a Henri Roux type breech that looks nearly IDENTICAL to the other gun I provided photos of with the exception being that this one has a Greener style safety and is in much better condition.

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#195759 - 07/14/10 06:28 PM Re: Another Drilling to be Identified - Help Welcome [Re: Rookhawk]
ellenbr Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8653
Loc: North Alabama
What is the letter type on the "Nitro" stamp for the scattergun tubes? Without handling it or a pic, I'd guess the 1/29 is the proofdate and Wilhelm Kelber was the mechanic who performed the tube assembly work. Is the "outlined letter M is present on each barrel" actually a cursive "W" encircling a "K"? 0.318" wasn't made obselete until the 1939 proof rules. I'd first guess 8x57R/360 and then go from there. There's not a full choke designation, just a "Crown" over "W" which notes that at a min. there is/was 0.008" of constriction at proof. Look forward to the pics.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#195764 - 07/14/10 07:18 PM Re: Another Drilling to be Identified - Help Welcome [Re: ellenbr]
Rookhawk Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 07/07/10
Posts: 707
Raimey,

Here is the only picture I have handy right now. It shows the type style of the nitro proof visible on the barrels.



The letter "M" on each of the shotgun barrels (not shown) is clearly a letter M but it is rather an outlined tracing of a letter M.

The barrels were claimed to be full and full but I haven't had them measured personally to verify. I had heard that if another number is next to the circled-gauge proof it may mean the barrel has some amount less choke than full. The other 16 drilling had a circle-16 with the number 16 on one barrel (full) and the other barrel was circle-16 with the number 17 on the barrel and it was less than full. I'm not sure this is correct, but a drilling collector told me that was what it meant.

There is definitely NOT a cursive W encircling a K. There is a cursive W.K. on the barrel in just the same area you usually see the barrel mechanic's mark in the examples I've reviewed.

How can I learn more about Wilhelm Kelber or the A. Strover, Nordhausen individual mentioned on the gun barrels? I'd love to make a maker's label for the gun case that included his name and shop's address if I could find such historical information about the man. You seem to know so much about these mechanics and gunsmiths and I'm wondering if you are referencing a book?

Why would you guess 8x57r/360 before you would guess that a gun marked 7.8mmx57 would mean 8x57jr? Isn't 16/16/8x57 the classic drilling type most common?

I'll know more when I make a chamber cast later this week but I'll be very disappointed if this gun is a 8x57/360. I have zero interest in handloading and just sold ALL my reloading equipment a week ago. I'm an off-the-shelf guy now and 360 ammo is not of interest to me.

Thanks as always.


Edited by Rookhawk (07/14/10 07:19 PM)

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#195777 - 07/14/10 09:06 PM Re: Another Drilling to be Identified - Help Welcome [Re: Rookhawk]
ellenbr Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8653
Loc: North Alabama
It was made in Suhl & my 1st guess is that it is a E. Schmidt & Habermann Model 501, Roux-Drilling. If it doesn't have a pop-up sight for the solid projectile tube, it would be a Model 500. I don't know the patent exactly, but the E. Schmidt & Habermann Model 500 & 501 had some type patented forend latch/plunger? In fact, I'd just about lay a pretty heavy wager that E. Schmidt & Habermann either made it or sourced if for old A. Ströver of Nordhausen. I'm sure there is info on ole Ströver, but he was purely a firearms merchant that had connections to the money facet. One note that all shops had to either be a master gunsmith or have a master gunsmith on staff. I'm not sure but the widow seems to have been allowed to continue the business but for how long and when a master had to be on staff I can't say. The guild/trade looks to really have provided for their own, at least in the early years. All the grunt work was contracted to E. Schmidt & Habermann and they in turn sub-contracted the work thru economic channels. From my perspective, I really not intrigued by the peddler but the craftsman/craftsmen who made these find pieces. To my knowledge, there isn't any one such book on the makers of Suhl & Zella-Mehlis, much less those of Praha, Wein, Weipert, etc. If there is I'd like to purchase one. Too much water has passed under the bridge coupled with a lack of interest has left us with the puzzles we are now faced with. By who knows there might be a brief on many of the makers one day.

I'd also guess that Richard(Not Franz) Keller applied the engraving effort. When it comes to Austrian/Bohemian/German guns, there are zero hard and fast rules as they were constructed to the whims of the client. I'm sure it is possible for the rifled tube to be chambered in 8x57IR, but considering the drilling type, firearms merchant, lack of "IR" stamp, etc., I'd lean toward the 8x57R-360 but a chamber cast will reveal the little demon. Nordhausen is close to or in the Harz mountains where the V2 was manufactured.

The vulgar fraction, or integer, adjacent to the encircled cartridge designation(notes black powder also) has nothing to do with choke but notes a diameter of the tube 22cm ahead of the standing breech if the tube had more than 0,2mm of constriction, noted by the "Crown" over "W" which warranted at least 1 additional proof. If the "Crown" over "W" is not present, the diameter could have been measured at the business end.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#195782 - 07/14/10 09:37 PM Re: Another Drilling to be Identified - Help Welcome [Re: ellenbr]
Rookhawk Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 07/07/10
Posts: 707
Raimey,

You are like a walking encyclopedia of guns. I wish I could hire you to follow me around all day and tell me what things actually are that I see! Like a faithful golden retriever, but with an IQ of 180. You're remarkable!

Anyway, I couldn't find any examples of the E. Schmidt & Habermann Model 501, Roux-Drilling online. I'll look in my copy of "the drilling" to see if I can find any more information out.

I did find this link to a VERY badly treated drilling that has much in common. http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....amp;Search=true

In that dialogue, they said it was a Meffert drilling. The receiver on the gun we are discussing now is identical as to the position of cocking indicators, etc.

What I find very distinctive is that both guns I've discussed AND the gun at the link above all have that very peculiar method of joining the receiver and the wood stock that I don't see in other drilling examples.

Do you believe that the gun we are discussing, the gun you addressed for me in the other thread, and the gun at the link above attributed to Meffert are all from the same manufacturer?

Do you believe the engraving on both of my guns is from the same engraver? (it seems very, very similar in style and pattern) How did you come to believe Franz Keller was the engraver?

Lastly (and I know I've asked a lot of questions of you), do you believe this gun is desireable/collectible if it is currently in 95%+ original condition? Is it worth $2000, or $4000, or other?

Raimey, you and the rest of the contributors on this forum are the best. I hope to reward you with liquor or cigars should we ever meet in person.

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#195783 - 07/14/10 09:41 PM Re: Another Drilling to be Identified - Help Welcome [Re: Rookhawk]
Rookhawk Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 07/07/10
Posts: 707
More pictures:












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#195784 - 07/14/10 09:49 PM Re: Another Drilling to be Identified - Help Welcome [Re: Rookhawk]
ellenbr Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8653
Loc: North Alabama
Originally Posted By: Rookhawk
More pictures:






Let me stare at the engraving but it may be of a different hand. Keller subscribed to a type of Art Noveau motif and if I'm not mistaken was sourced by Meffert.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#195789 - 07/14/10 10:12 PM Re: Another Drilling to be Identified - Help Welcome [Re: ellenbr]
ellenbr Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8653
Loc: North Alabama
It may be a Meffert, but I really don't trust the name on the top of the rib to have any part in the construction of the drilling. Instead the initials on the underside of the longarm reveal the craftsmen and may point back to the name atop the rib. Yours may very well fall in the Meffert serial number range but they were sourced for the trade. One thing though: Meffert's philosophy was that he could produce say 10 unadorned longarms in the time it took to make 1 or 2 embelished ones. So it is possible that it was sourced from Meffert but the work order was above what Meffert typical produced. And that was the thread for which I was looking.

In the scheme of things I know very little but am attempting to assemble, or compose, source material. Many have come before me and have laid the ground-work for info that needs to be carried forward. I'm going to hold you to an earthy smoke as well as a lively libation.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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#195801 - 07/14/10 11:19 PM Re: Another Drilling to be Identified - Help Welcome [Re: ellenbr]
Rookhawk Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 07/07/10
Posts: 707
Raimey,

One other hint that was marked on the rifle barrel's belly was a block "ST". It ran parallel the length of the barrel, and was right after the post that supports the splinter forend's attachment. (sorry if there is a proper term for that I do not know)

This "ST" was not at all related to the STMG bullet proofs, but was just two charcters in a fairly large block type font. It appeard to be in a similar typeface to the "Krupp" words on the gun. The only other two letter combination on the gun was the already addressed "W.K.". The difference being that W.K. was in a stylized cursive and the ST was in a bold, capitalized block set.

I promise I will post superior pictures in early August. (travelling until then) Other than superior pictures, what can I do to move the ball forward into identifying the manufacturer, engraver and retailer's identity?

Other than more cigars and liquor placed into the IOU account, what else would you need to delve deeper into this gun's history? smile


Edited by Rookhawk (07/14/10 11:20 PM)

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#195814 - 07/15/10 05:32 AM Re: Another Drilling to be Identified - Help Welcome [Re: Rookhawk]
Rookhawk Offline
Sidelock
**

Registered: 07/07/10
Posts: 707
Raimey,

I found another good example of a drilling on the nitro express forum that you were discussing. It really seems like the engraver on this one could be the same as the drilling we're discussing in this thread.



I heard mention of names such as Treff, Meffert, or W. Müchler & Söhne being discussed on the very similar gun in that thread, for reference.

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